SCARLET by Red Digital Cinema

[booggerg]

The idea is indeed to break the camera down into small, Lego-ish modules you can assemble many different ways: here's a similar prototype set up with additional I/O and battery modules, shoulder pad and grip handles mimicking a shoulder-mount ENG style camera:

Right, but then control everything of the camera from a little LCD in the back and few minimalist buttons... Not a serious attempt at ergonomics.

The setup you've posted is a fine setup if you got a focus puller working with ya. My comment was for the unergonomic nature of the fixed lens scarlet which in their rendering is made to resemble a Dual-Grip DSLR. Given the run n' go application something like that is designed for, ergonomics that will help a single shooter operate the said camera does not seem to exist. All I see are horrible Lego-ish edges that the operator has to interact with.

And boogreg, the vertical grip in that picture dosn't look too bad, as far as the picture you commented on, I can't even see it...?

I beg to differ.. I interact with DSLRs 10-12hrs continuously when I'm on the job. I truly appreciate every little detail the industrial designer put into the body to improve the camera's ergonomics.. Trust me, your body will feel the impact of an unergonomic grip over time.

If straight edge is an ergonomic design, why not make steering wheels with a square cross section instead of a smooth tube? Or how about that dual grip in the Red pic above, why not just make the grips to have sharp edges instead of shapely foam?

[Luxaltor]

Right, but then control everything of the camera from a little LCD in the back and few minimalist buttons... Not a serious attempt at ergonomics.

The setup you've posted is a fine setup if you got a focus puller working with ya. My comment was for the unergonomic nature of the fixed lens scarlet which in their rendering is made to resemble a Dual-Grip DSLR. Given the run n' go application something like that is designed for, ergonomics that will help a single shooter operate the said camera does not seem to exist. All I see are horrible Lego-ish edges that the operator has to interact with.

The thing is, this camera is modular a lot of people don't understand that. First of all, I don't even think that unit has an LCD in the back. Why? You mount the LCD where ever you want it.

Again, we all can't really argue until the thing is actually out and people can actually touch it, but I fail to think of a reason why it would not be comfortable in its final stages. Surely you believe Red is actually, I don't know, trying out their designs? If it was highly uncomfortable, they would change it. They have no deadlines, no pressure from backers, they are all in their own little bubble. They have time to perfect everything and they are taking their sweet time.

[booggerg]

Yes, I understand it is a modular design. While it has it's benefits, as far as I can tell, for MOST people, the minor benefits from this modular offering is being able to reuse your CF recorder or viewfinder, or grip setup with another camera - just as an example. Not worth going to modular for these tiny benefits..

The cost of going modular? You get these very unintuitive lego blocks that make up a camera, with all of the controls confined to a modular "control panel", instead of the buttons and switches on the body where it should be in an ergonomically thought-out design.

Hey you know what this Red thing reminds me of? Now who is the original modular camera maker?



http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-bro...oduct-HDCX300/

[fishops]

of course if the scarlet was all aerodynamic curves and rounded corners, booggerg would be ranting and raving about how stupid and ineffecient that is. i mean who needs a camera to be aerodynamic anyway? what MOST people want is a simple, easy rectangular device they can plug together like legos, how hard is that to understand? instead those RED guys are overdoing it AGAIN with their stupid overasfiahipwgngpaiwfiphughauhgaughg;shsg

[booggerg]

of course if the scarlet was all aerodynamic curves and rounded corners, booggerg would be ranting and raving about how stupid and ineffecient that is. i mean who needs a camera to be aerodynamic anyway? what MOST people want is a simple, easy rectangular device they can plug together like legos, how hard is that to understand? instead those RED guys are overdoing it AGAIN with their stupid overasfiahipwgngpaiwfiphughauhgaughg;shsg

MOST people want a rectangular device? LOL What era in the past do you still live in? Most people get sucked in the "modular design" without even thinking about the benefits from this modular design.. Being able to interchange your top handle, grip handle, LCD, battery, recording drive, is hardly a big deal. I don't consider being able to swap sensors is a benefit because the cost of the sensor would such that keeping an old chassis around does not make sense.

By the same token, I can claim Canon designed the HXA1 and HV20 to be somewhat modular because the lens hood from the XHA1 can be attached to the HV20. BAM! modular! let's write up this campaign and run with it!

Back to ergonomics..

I love the ergonomic curvy design of my Canon 1D series DSLRs. I love the ergonomics of my DVX100 (and hopefully soon to be HMC150). The placement of each and every button on the camera body has a direct impact on the user experience and a huge impact of how well the equipment can be operated. Frequently accessed functionality on the camera body with dedicated buttons is a must in any pro field. The alternative is like having an HV30 with full manual but only accessible through the LCD menu and by using the stupid joystick.

[Luxaltor]

...is hardly a big deal.

...what?

Have you ever used a steady cam? Have you ever used a shoulder mount?

Saying that modular design is hardly a big deal really shows your ignorance for the entire shooting process.

Okay, one scene is a chase scene, you need to use a steady cam. That means mounting monitors and batteries to counter balance, etc. A modular system won't help?

Right after this chase scene, are some hand held shots. Alright, piece of cake, take it off the steady cam. Rebalance, easily reposition monitors, pop it on your shoulder and bam, your back to shooting.

And then you go home and decide to go camping. Well, your very expensive camera also takes some nice pictures, why not use that? You don't need the recording modules, the batteries, the monitors, just take all of them off, slap the vertical grip on it and go camping.

I fail to see how a Digital Stills and Motion Camera would ever work in a design that was not modular.

Several different configurations that could be required during a shoot:

-Shoulder mounted
-Tripod
-Steadicam
-Car mount or suction mounts of any kind
-Crane/Jib
-R/C Ariel Device (Hell, Vincint Laforet flew his Canon EOS 5D Mark II on an R/C helicopter, you could do that with the red if you wanted to. Try doing that with any camera larger then that!)
-Many, many more.

A modular system is going to work with every setup. A "ergonomic" camera would not, or would require more modifications/equipment.

[Erik Bien]

The RED One's menu system is simpler than you would probably expect due to recording RAW: choose your aspect ratio, bit-rate, frame rate, shutter speed. FIZ is all manual. Color space LUT, ISO and white balance can be set for monitoring convenience, but it's only meta-data which can be non-destructively re-set in post. No gain, knee, gamma, sharpening or other "painting the camera" adjustments.

[booggerg]

The RED One's menu system is simpler than you would probably expect due to recording RAW: choose your aspect ratio, bit-rate, frame rate, shutter speed. FIZ is all manual. Color space LUT, ISO and white balance can be set for monitoring convenience, but it's only meta-data which can be non-destructively re-set in post. No gain, knee, gamma, sharpening or other "painting the camera" adjustments.

That is a good point Erik. Thanks.

Have you ever used a shoulder mount?

Saying that modular design is hardly a big deal really shows your ignorance for the entire shooting process.

Okay, one scene is a chase scene, you need to use a steady cam. That means mounting monitors and batteries to counter balance, etc. A modular system won't help?

So what is so different with every other camera where you can hook up a high-res HD monitor to it? I can go out and get a shoulder mount for any camera out there and detach it when not needed. What is so special about the Red's shoulder mount and LCD that gives its camera the modular label? Can I call my DVX modular because I can either attach it to a DVMultiRig shoulder mount or to a steady cam and hook a LCD to its SVIDEO output and put a big battery on the LCD for counter balance.. Or can I not call it modular because the shoulder mount and LCD is not made by panasonic?

[Halsu]

What is so special about the Red's shoulder mount and LCD that gives its camera the modular label?

It's not just shoulder mount and LCD.

You can pretty much change everything about the camera, for example

- How it gets it's power: a battery module, still camera like hand grip, other
- Where it records to: from card slot to hard drives etc.
- The connections: audio and video inputs and outputs, from analog to HDMI to SDI, probably wireless too, timecode, whatnot.
- How you control the camera: hand grip, wireless remote...
- Lens mounts: use Nikon or Canon still lenses, ENG broadcast zooms, cine lenses, whatever
- Then there's of course the accessories you mentioned, and others like them


So, you can take a brain and configure it into a still camera, with roughly the same form factor and features as high end DSLR cameras from other manufacturers. Then change some modules, and the camera becomes a broadcast camera, ready for a live HD broadcast. Put on yet another set of modules, and you have camera that has roughly the ergonomics and features of a small prosumer cam. Or a full fledged and jazzed up big feature film camera...

Oh, btw, and AFAIK, most of the above modules don't need to be directly screwed on the camera brain: you can keep the camera very small and have your batteries drives etc. connected to it with a cable. So, for a skydiving helmet camera config, you could have most of the weight in a backpack, and mount just the brain and the lens to your helmet... and so on.

The cameras can pretty much be whatever you want - you get the modules that are needed for your particular application, and don't pay for (or haul around) stuff you don't need. When your needs change, you just get new modules, not a new camera.

[fishops]

go figure my post went completely over his head

my point, "boogergrgee" if that is your real name, is that no matter what RED does you will bitch and moan and troll about it because you are never going to own or use a camera in that league anyway so the closest you can get to it is arguing on the internet about a product that doesn't exist.

[Luxaltor]

Hot damn!

18-85mm zoom T2.9
300mm T2.9
100mm T1.9
85mm T1.9
50mm T1.9
35mm T1.9
25mm T1.9

[-Rogue5-]

I really don't care for RED lenses simply because I know they're gonna cost a ton of money... And with primes, it adds up rather quickly.

I want them to focus on releasing scarlet... any of them (preferably one I can afford). Of course, I may feel this way because I can't use red lenses until I have a red camera...

-Rogue5-

[booggerg]

go figure my post went completely over his head

my point, "boogergrgee" if that is your real name, is that no matter what RED does you will bitch and moan and troll about it because you are never going to own or use a camera in that league anyway so the closest you can get to it is arguing on the internet about a product that doesn't exist.

Wow Fish: you are really taking it personally? Aren't you also arguing for a product that doesn't exist?

[Luxaltor]

I really don't care for RED lenses simply because I know they're gonna cost a ton of money... And with primes, it adds up rather quickly.

I want them to focus on releasing scarlet... any of them (preferably one I can afford). Of course, I may feel this way because I can't use red lenses until I have a red camera...

I read some speculation somewhere that they have a partnership with a currently unnamed lens manufacturer. Which would make sense. You don't exactly decide one day to make a lens and go to the local Home Depot to get the parts.

...then again, the same can be said about their sensors too.

But yea, they are most likely going to be super expensive, but what Cine lenses arn't? I'm going to assume they are optimized for the FF35 format. If this is true, just look at Zeiss's Digi Prime lenses. They are designed for 2/3" cameras and each one easily costs over 10 grand.

Still doesn't mean you can't drool over them!

Wow Fish: you are really taking it personally? You certainly take the Red thing to heart huh? Good for you buddy.

Wow, your really going on about this? Red could give a free Ferarri with every Scarlet purchase and you'd still complain about it. Don't criticize something that isn't even out yet and also expect to be taken seriously. It is really that simple.

[booggerg]

Don't criticize something that isn't even out yet and also expect to be taken seriously. It is really that simple.

Taken seriously? Hey we're all on the internet forums typing about crap that doesn't mean anything.. why should any of this be taken seriously?

[Luxaltor]

Taken seriously? Hey we're all on the internet forums typing about crap that doesn't mean anything.. why should any of this be taken seriously?

The way you keep criticizing a constantly changing product one would think you have a vendetta against Red or something.

[Ian-T]

Taken seriously? Hey we're all on the internet forums typing about crap that doesn't mean anything.. why should any of this be taken seriously?

I hope Jannard PM's you one day and offers you a FREE Red One.

[booggerg]

nah.. i'll criticize all i want for now ... when the thing do come out, I'll loook at how it it compares and will buy one if it suites for what I need..

[Luxaltor]

They will be sold as a set at 1st. All 5 lenses for just under $20K ($4K each). All 6 lenses (add the Pro 300mm) for just under $25K. Later this year we will sell the primes individually for just under $5K each, except the Pro 300mm which is $5950.

So Jim says they are not FF35, so they are going to most likely be S35 since that is closest to the Red One and these will be out before Scarlet and Epic.

When you think about the price: Arri Ultra Primes

I think it is a fair comparison since the S35 is almost exactly the same as standard 35mm film. The cheapest Zeiss is around 7 thousand pounds which is roughly $9,000 USD.

Of course, I won't be able to afford any of it for quite a long time, but it is nice to know its there when I start making money.

[Erik Bien]

I really don't care for RED lenses simply because I know they're gonna cost a ton of money...

Depends on your definition of "a ton of money" ... 5 primes for under $20K looks like a bargain if you've shopped for cine lenses recently!

[Luxaltor]

*Drools*



My only comment is that looks like it would be a bit front heavy. But who would use a Cine Prime lens for photography? Wouldn't that be a bit overkill? Also I'm not sure I'd use a 7 inch screen for photography, also a bit over kill. Ah well, you get the idea though... and what a sweet idea it really is. And by the way, I'm pretty sure these are full working models, I can see the display is showing something on top the handle.

[1]

THAT does look pretty cool!

[Erik Bien]

Re: the new RED lenses, a similar five lens set of Cooke S4s would set you back $87,400.

[Luxaltor]

What exactly sets apart a Cine lens then say, a high end lens I would get for photography?

Like, the Canon 85mm f/1.2 L seems like its the best Canon can make it and it is around $2,000 yet a 85mm t/1.8 from Red is going to be around $5,000.

Both lenses cover roughly the same area. (In fact, the Red lenses are designed for areas smaller then the Canon is so it should actually be easier to make, right?) Plus, the Canon has electrical contacts allowing focusing assist which is another thing the Red does not have.

The only thing I can think of is the Cine lenses most likely don't breath, but I'm not sure that justifies such a more expensive price tag.

[Ian-T]

Re: the new RED lenses, a similar five lens set of Cooke S4s would set you back $87,400.

Just for glass i n a tube???? OMG That's a small house. I'd lock those things in a vault. i know there's the option to rent but.....dang!!