SCARLET by Red Digital Cinema

[Braceface]

all this vaporware talk is boring me.. christmass 2009? Let me analyze the market and its product offerings when that time comes around.. until then I'll start producing work with the best product I can buy today..

I'm on board with you there, BUT sometimes when you are financially stressed you are better off waiting if the market has something on the horizon more valuable and at a good price down the road.
But I do pretty much agree, AND with Red it will take much longer than a year so there aint no way in hell I'm holding my breath for them. Like you, I'm in the market NOW, not then.

[booggerg]

I'm on board with you there, BUT sometimes when you are financially stressed you are better off waiting if the market has something on the horizon more valuable and at a good price down the road.
But I do pretty much agree, AND with Red it will take much longer than a year so there aint no way in hell I'm holding my breath for them. Like you, I'm in the market NOW, not then.

I love how all the Red Fabois are asking 5D2 vs Scarlet and saying ridiculous thing like "How do I put money down on one?"

Hello! Everything RED announced yesterday are all theoretical cameras! Just like how the original Scarlet announcement was of a theoretical camera and remember? plans for that was scraped not too long ago.

[Braceface]

I love how all the Red Fabois are asking 5D2 vs Scarlet and saying ridiculous thing like "How do I put money down on one?"

Hello! Everything RED announced yesterday are all theoretical cameras! Just like how the original Scarlet announcement was of a theoretical camera and remember? plans for that was scraped not too long ago.

RIGHT!!! but I think there is supposed to be 2 s's in scraped, (scrapped) ?
Maybe I'M wrong. ( I'm all in a fog today ) My Mac took a Big crap on me and I had to take it to the apple store and have it fixed. So I had to uninstall THEN re-install my FCS suite. I'm still working out setting it up right. I had so many presets for conversions that I lost that I've had to re-research how to do most things all over again. Like pulldown removal. Why the hell am I even blabbering about this in such an unrelated thread. I think Reid is effecting us.

[David]

"the DSLR part of DSMC is sidetracking RED"

The irony here is that niether the Scarlet nor the Epic is a DSLR killer at all. To get a Red camera that delivers results like a DSLR, you have to pay 10x as much. Sure it's fun for forum uber-geeks to look at Red-porn renderings like this: http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1226647790.jpg But how many still photographers are going to dump their DSLRs to spend $20-$30,000 on something like that? I'd say not very many at all.

If this is what Red has to offer, then Nikon has nothing to worry about from Red.

[Erik Bien]

Just like how the original Scarlet announcement was of a theoretical camera and remember? plans for that was scraped not too long ago.

Huh? What specs have so far been published for the "entry level" Scarlet (2/3" 3K 1-120fps fixed 8x zoom lens) are identical to what Scarlet was pre-redesign. How does keeping that basic camera while at the same time introducing three variations constitute "scrapping" anything?

[Halsu]

How does keeping that basic camera while at the same time introducing three variations constitute "scrapping" anything?

He's just touchy. His Mac too a crap ;-)

Edit: there's a typo in the above sentence, but it's kinda accidently double funny like this, so i'll add the missing letter here: "k"

[booggerg]

Huh? What specs have so far been published for the "entry level" Scarlet (2/3" 3K 1-120fps fixed 8x zoom lens) are identical to what Scarlet was pre-redesign. How does keeping that basic camera while at the same time introducing three variations constitute "scrapping" anything?

Exactly: They're just published specs.... no images, just a mock up shell in a clear display case. I love it how people are comparing a stats sheet of something that "might" be release in a year to a real camera that you can buy today.

[Braceface]

He's just touchy. His Mac too a crap ;-)

Edit: there's a typo in the above sentence, but it's kinda accidently double funny like this, so i'll add the missing letter here: "k"

If you are referring to me, then you are misreading the thread. It wasn't me who was being quoted about the specs. About the mac, The service that the apple store provided was the best ever. They fixed it and handed it back in 2 days!!!!!!!!. I talked to ZERO indians on the phone, and it was all covered by the warranty. God Bless Apple, and Mac.
I don't have a problem with Red. The Scarlet is just not a camera that would suit me at the price they ask, and I'm not into legoware that will AGAIN become obsolete. I hate to see how pissed the redusers get when this modular so called ever updatable equipment becomes obsolete. The Red 1 just got swallowed, and there are MANY pissed original R1 owners now. This will no doubtedly happen again when this new Obsolete proof line of Scarlet/Epics become equivelent to a 1970s 8 track cassette player.
Technology will indeed make this line look very Tacky in 5 years time especially since we are at the point in time when there are such AND so many groundbreaking things being done on not just Red's front, but all other camera designers too.
I'm predicting that the 2nd wave of Redusers will become just as/if not more, disillusioned in a couple years as the original ones are right about now. Don't pre-order something that will undoubtedly become the Beta video cassette player of the future surrounded by Blue-Rays. They are quick to advance their technology, but their turn-around time to hit the markets with it is going to kill them before they can find a real footing in the industry. They would have been better off to hold back their new design concepts until it was ready to ship. NOPE, not Jim with diarreah mouth.
So in conclusion, I'm going to buy a nice Mark II for less than 3 grand and not cry if it becomes obsolete. I would cry if I spent 30 grand building a soon to be obsolete, and already tacky looking camera. The new line looks tacky too. Legoware, don't do it.
Can we stop this dumb Scarlet stuff? They are making a tremendous booboo with this concept releas on all fronts. They promised the world and then ask for the price of the universe, before you can own Pluto. Alright?

[Erik Bien]

Pardon me if I chuckle at the notion of armies of "pissed" R1 owners. I spoke to my RED-owning friend within hours of the published announcement and we were both still trying to digest it, but it sounds as if he will buy the 5K S35 Scarlet (at a discount as a current owner) with PL and Nikon mounts and keep the One as the "A" camera, rather than take the full-price trade-in upgrade to an Epic.

To be sure, rental rates and demand vary by market, but his camera is working so much we're looking into renting a RED package for a possible overseas shoot in the spring, so his RED kit can stay home earning income while we're away.

[Braceface]

Chuckle all you want. Then go read the reduser forum and cry. There is a backlash bigger than the Sarah Palin debacle. They just made a lot of enemies from friends based on a slogan that they launched their entire company based on. ( which was dumb in the first place).... Good luck with your Red products. I wont pay for a camera the price of a nice car if I know it will become obsolete, but hey, do what you have to man.

[Halsu]

If you are referring to me, then you are misreading the thread. It wasn't me who was being quoted about the specs.

Sorry. I'm a bit tired, just like my humor ;-)

I don't have a problem with Red.

Sure seems like you do ;-)

The Red 1 just got swallowed, and there are MANY pissed original R1 owners now.

I've wondered why - and of course MANY is a relative term. There's 2-3 whiny rants in the red forums, but i think there's also thousands of happy users.

Red one didn't became any less valuable a tool as it was before the announcement. It's still upgradeable, the same sensors as in new models can be put into it. The developement continues just as before, new features are added to the camera. And all the accessories bought for red one are compatible with the new cameras.

Also, the users can send back their camera for a full $17 500 refund if they wish upgrade to Epic. I wonder if Canon would do that if i wanted to upgrade my HV20 to XH-A1?

RED ONE is still arguably the best digital video camera available for purchase at any price (right now, no waiting). Not bad for an obsolete piece of junk, eh?

Technology will indeed make this line look very Tacky in 5 years time especially since we are at the point in time when there are such AND so many groundbreaking things being done on not just Red's front, but all other camera designers too.

I'd say RED ONE will be a very, very good and usable choice in 5 years from now, probably much longer. Decades even.

Same goes to the new cameras. They will all be valid choices, including the cheap scarlets.

So in conclusion, I'm going to buy a nice Mark II for less than 3 grand and not cry if it becomes obsolete.

Gonna shoot stills? An excellent choice for a camera. I went for D90 myself, i have some old Nikon glass i can use with it (and Scarlet too when i get one ;-)

If you're talking about MKII as a video camera, it's already "obsolete", before it's even available. Unless you only wish to shoot under 5 minutes a time ,-)

The new line looks tacky too. Legoware, don't do it.

Opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has got one. Mine says the new line looks functional and cool. No complaints there.

Can we stop this dumb Scarlet stuff? They are making a tremendous booboo with this concept releas on all fronts.

My hunch says they're going to make dozens of millions of dollars with Scarlet... Wanna bet?

After all, it's the biggest news since MiniDV - professional grade quality at affordable prices.

[bighaircarey]

I know a lot of people are bummed with what the red stuff is going to be now, but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

While I'm not thrilled with the prices or release dates I'm still pretty excited about the possibilities. I do a lot of sports shooting and the possibilities of doing 120 fps is awesome and not something I could find in comparable priced camera.

And as far as the accessories shooting up the cost this is to be expected but atleast now you only have to get what you want. Plus you won't be buying tapes anymore so that will save some money. I go through about 15 tapes a month during busy times, so thats more than $1000 in savings. In the long run it might even become cheaper if you get a setup and stick with it and with 3k+ its not going to become outdated.

Carey

[Rumpelgeist]

Plus you won't be buying tapes anymore so that will save some money. I go through about 15 tapes a month during busy times, so thats more than $1000 in savings.

15 tapes is about $40, right? Where did $1000 come from?

[Ian-T]

"the DSLR part of DSMC is sidetracking RED"

The irony here is that niether the Scarlet nor the Epic is a DSLR killer at all. To get a Red camera that delivers results like a DSLR, you have to pay 10x as much. Sure it's fun for forum uber-geeks to look at Red-porn renderings like this: http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1226647790.jpg But how many still photographers are going to dump their DSLRs to spend $20-$30,000 on something like that? I'd say not very many at all.

If this is what Red has to offer, then Nikon has nothing to worry about from Red.

I ....can't ....find anything in this statement...to disagree with. I don't want it to be true....but.....you are right...RED SUCKS!!!

[bighaircarey]

Sorry left out "per year"
Supposed to be $1000 per year.

I only buy Panasonic master quality so its about $20 per box, so it adds up.

[Ian-T]

Huh? What specs have so far been published for the "entry level" Scarlet (2/3" 3K 1-120fps fixed 8x zoom lens) are identical to what Scarlet was pre-redesign. How does keeping that basic camera while at the same time introducing three variations constitute "scrapping" anything?

oK....finally...someone repeating what I've only mentioned TWICE in this thread. The basic Scarlet announced months ago is the very same camera we are looking at in their new camera description. I guess it will be confirmed once the specs come out. Thanks you...thank you...

So...this simply means...all the new information we have received has been just icing on the cake. What are folks disappointed about?

The fact remains though...if you want something close to what the Canon DSLR has to offer...you will have to pay heavily for it.. A real DSLR killer would be down in the price range of the baseline Scarlet. Like David mentioned ...I don't see any professional still photographers jumping ship to buy a tricked out Scarlet for approximately 3 or 4 times as much as a good professional DSLR.

[fishops]

Chuckle all you want. Then go read the reduser forum and cry. There is a backlash bigger than the Sarah Palin debacle. They just made a lot of enemies from friends based on a slogan that they launched their entire company based on. ( which was dumb in the first place).... Good luck with your Red products. I wont pay for a camera the price of a nice car if I know it will become obsolete, but hey, do what you have to man.

i don't understand anything you are saying in this thread at all.

You complain about obsolescence. How is the scarlet more prone to obsolescence than an HDV or AVCHD or DVCPROHD camera? I would think that the modular system with standard lens and rail mounts would mean less proprietorization, thus LESS obsolescence. What exactly is your worry?

You complain a lot about this "legoware" modularity, but you don't specifically say WHY it's bad. Why do you think it's bad? Why would you rather have everything built into the camera?

You and Eugenia complain about workflow, but even the HV20 requires you to transcode to ProRes or AIC if you want to use 24P footage in final cut. If you just want 1080p or 2K, why can't you just output what you want when you transcode? If your computer can't handle 4K, you could either downres it or use Final Cut's (excellent) proxy system, or just use the in-camera proxy system. You can edit in whatever format you want, at whatever framerate you want, and you retain the option of 4K if you need it. I don't see the downside.

You say there are "MANY pissed original R1 owners now." Where? Why are they pissed? If it's because of this announcement, I don't see how they have a reason to be. They can either upgrade their cameras to the new sensor for a modest fee or take a COMPLETE rebate on their entire original purchase toward the cost of a new system. I have never heard of any camera company ever doing that. It's certainly more generous than Canon has ever been toward HV20 users.

I think you need to think through your points before you make them, you're not making a lot of sense.

[Ian-T]

I guess it's taken a whole day for this all to sink in for me. But what I am concluding is that there is nothing really revolutionary about all of this. Sure...there are many great ideas coming out of the Red camp. But , at least for me, what I would consider revolutionary (especially for pro-sumers) would be something that forces companies like Canon, Panasonic, Sony and JVC to step up their game with their future cams (better features, lower cost etc.). But this aint it.

I was not kidding yesterday when I said they are probably laughing. All this hoopla makes me more and more appreciate the camera that I already own...which so happens to be an HV20. I've seen some great pictures come out of this camera...so why the heck should I bank my hopes on something that might never materialize. And even if it eventually does..then so what? The cost of all the necessary components needed to make a simple moving picture kills it for me. I think this is where Red shot themselves in the foot.

They had a opportunity to really make a difference here but what they have proven to me is that they are no different than the rest of these money grubbin manufacturers with their, feature starved, over priced, over hyped, watered down, toy cameras. Yes...Scarlet and Epic will have a lot of features on them...but they don't even exist at the moment......so bah humbug!!!

Edit: If anything..Canon and Nikon brought more possibilities to the pro-sumer shooters with their new DSLRs. What they proved was that it is possible to make a camera with such large sensors for CHEAP compared to what we all know as professional cams that cost more towards the $100,000 mark. Now that we know this...it would be a shame to continue on as they have been with their watered down cams. I think I'm kind of pissed off at Red... They should have slapped the big guns in the face....

Edit: I dunno....maybe I'm just mad because I can't afford it at the moment... No worries...I'll be ok...

[fishops]

As I said earlier in this thread, I don't think RED is even trying for the prosumer market. They're shooting for the 2/3" market which is drastically different. There is currently no such thing as a 2/3" camera that shoots 4K. There's also no such thing as a 2/3" HD camcorder that lists for under $10k. If I were a TV, ENG, documentary or sports producer I would be looking really closely at what RED is up to. If you're a hobbyist or prosumer, I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Ian-T]

As I said earlier in this thread, I don't think RED is even trying for the prosumer market. They're shooting for the 2/3" market which is drastically different. There is currently no such thing as a 2/3" camera that shoots 4K. There's also no such thing as a 2/3" HD camcorder that lists for under $10k. If I were a TV, ENG, documentary or sports producer I would be looking really closely at what RED is up to. If you're a hobbyist or prosumer, I wouldn't hold your breath.

...LOL...well.. I guess it just took me a whole day to agree with you.

[Braceface]

Sorry. I'm a bit tired, just like my humor ;-)




Sure seems like you do ;-)



I've wondered why - and of course MANY is a relative term. There's 2-3 whiny rants in the red forums, but i think there's also thousands of happy users.

Red one didn't became any less valuable a tool as it was before the announcement. It's still upgradeable, the same sensors as in new models can be put into it. The developement continues just as before, new features are added to the camera. And all the accessories bought for red one are compatible with the new cameras.

Also, the users can send back their camera for a full $17 500 refund if they wish upgrade to Epic. I wonder if Canon would do that if i wanted to upgrade my HV20 to XH-A1?

RED ONE is still arguably the best digital video camera available for purchase at any price (right now, no waiting). Not bad for an obsolete piece of junk, eh?



I'd say RED ONE will be a very, very good and usable choice in 5 years from now, probably much longer. Decades even.

Same goes to the new cameras. They will all be valid choices, including the cheap scarlets.



Gonna shoot stills? An excellent choice for a camera. I went for D90 myself, i have some old Nikon glass i can use with it (and Scarlet too when i get one ;-)

If you're talking about MKII as a video camera, it's already "obsolete", before it's even available. Unless you only wish to shoot under 5 minutes a time ,-)




Opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has got one. Mine says the new line looks functional and cool. No complaints there.



My hunch says they're going to make dozens of millions of dollars with Scarlet... Wanna bet?

After all, it's the biggest news since MiniDV - professional grade quality at affordable prices.

Why is everything you say dumb?

[i_make_tshirts]

this thread is awesome

[Halsu]

Why is everything you say dumb?

Is truth dumb?

[Braceface]

No. But your posts are pretty much hilarious.

Hey guys, there are a couple more tiny glimpses at Mark II video.
http://www.vimeo.com/2234340
http://www.vimeo.com/2234433

WOW!!. It looks incredible.

[Halsu]

No. But your posts are pretty much hilarious.

Thank you, i'll be here all week. Try the veal.

If you find any factual errors in my posts, please feel free to point them out.

WOW!!. It looks incredible.

Apart from shallow DOF, HV20 footage generally looks better in my opinion (probably not with the lighting that was available here though ;-)