Definitely with David on this one.
The DSLRs needed live-view first, before they could think about video. They got live-view a couple of years ago. The next evolutionary step is to record video.
Seems all very logical, and not very mystical to me!
Definitely with David on this one.
The DSLRs needed live-view first, before they could think about video. They got live-view a couple of years ago. The next evolutionary step is to record video.
Seems all very logical, and not very mystical to me!
See, I think you give Canon too much credit! I honestly don't think a machine of that size could react that fast. The 5D MKII may well have been on the drawing board even before RED ONE was announced.Originally Posted by Ian-T
which, iirc, was 200 years ago. :-)
/matt
You mention R&D… I’m not totally convinced. These are major players in the game…if anything…they have years of R&D. If a small company like…Ikon(forgot their names) and Red could come out with newer technology like what they currently have….why can’t the major players do the same. It’s not that they can’t….That’s because it is and always been about the bottom dollar.
Mal...you kinda make my point. if it was on the drawing board ....way before red.....why now??? Hmmm..
Last edited by Ian-T; 2008 September 22nd at 16:47.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
My real question David is the timing of everything (as I mentioned above). Why is everyone jumping on the same bandwagon....all of a sudden?? Lets' look at DSLR's for a second...Before this year...most cameras put out nothing but lackluster "video"....and of course we know they were not meant for video. But if you were to put all of these new cams together side by side (including the ones that are coming out)...they are all basically a mirror of one another....in terms of specs. 24p or 30p...Canon even went as far as stating a "Revolution." This is not Revolution...video have been on cams for years...but it always sucked. Why incorporate this in new DSLR’s and not camcorders?
I've been seeing comments from a lot of professional photographers that this move makes no sense. I kinda agree....it should have been the other way around.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
Haha...ROFL, you may be right!
It is NOT a revolution, I agree, but Canon called it Destined EVOLUTION, not revolution. There's a distinction. A big one. Red is claiming the REvolution thingy.
Evolution is what I consider it also.
It was on the drawing board and took this long to be released because, unlike RED, they don't come out with BETA versions. To design and come out with a cam that you're going to sell millions of, simply takes more planning, evaluation, testing, etc. etc. MUCH more so than a cam that you make a few hundred in batches, and call it BETA.
It's for this reason some here (Duke included I think), don't think the Scarlet will be released when they are saying it will. Since it will see a bigger release (in numbers), RED won't be able to afford the same "issues" it had with the RED ONE. Forget about getting Jim's cell phone number for instance!
What we're seeing is logical evolution, nothing else...
Last edited by 1; 2008 September 22nd at 17:18. Reason: tidy-up
LOL..jokes, I'm not really sure people care weather RED destroy Nikon and Canon, I think people just want products that tick as many boxes as possible for there needs. The fact that a (so called) small company are making an effort to create products that will hopefully tick the boxes should be celebrated.
I really doubt he's peeing in his pants...lol just rising to the competition, isn't that what companies do?
the fact that he has changed his plans with Scarlet meens the consumer will be getting a better product, anything wrong with that?
I just don't know why some people have a somewhat bitter attitude towards RED, maybe they have been payed by Nikon and Canon to come on forums and stir it up ..
I just don't know why some people have a somewhat bitter attitude towards RED, maybe they have been payed by Nikon and Canon to come on forums and stir it up ..
I think its because they only have ONE camera, the red one. They have a huge folk lore going on about a company with ONE camera. Red one is very accurate that way. It gets to be an easy , and appropriate target, when they go years between releases, and then totally re-design a camera's concept from SCRATCH, when a big dog growls. That means what? It means the big dog ( canon ) is watching them and laughing because they've had the tech available already. It's like watching a little boy invent the wheel. They wait til the Scarlet gets all confident, then swat them like a fly with a new design that passes them instantly. I'm sure Red will rise to the occasion, but I'm sure Canon did what they needed to remain relevent for the next 800 years, lol.
ForwardLooker, you're forgetting something. I've said many times that I like the idea of the Scarlet. I, and Mal, and others have said the Scarlet will probably be a good camera and we are likely to get one.The fact that a (so called) small company are making an effort to create products that will hopefully tick the boxes should be celebrated.
I really doubt he's peeing in his pants...lol just rising to the competition, isn't that what companies do? the fact that he has changed his plans with Scarlet meens the consumer will be getting a better product, anything wrong with that?
I just don't know why some people have a somewhat bitter attitude towards RED, maybe they have been payed by Nikon and Canon to come on forums and stir it up ..
What offends me, and I think Mal and Ian-T too, is that many Reduser and Scarletuser writers have a religious devotion to the cameras, and often have not even used one of the cameras much less say owned one.
I find this to be hypocritical, manipulative, hype and salesmanship. Even the name Scarletuser gives you a clue as not one of them IS a Scarlet user, because it doesn't exist. Forums on work flow, usage and how great the footage is, give me a break, it's still vaporware.
Talk about the scarlet as the be all and end all are nonsense. It should be a good camera, that's all.
I think Jim J. had to revamp his plans because three companies in a row are releasing products that could rival the Scarlet in certain areas. By the end of 2009 there may be something that actually beats it in most categories, and the Scarlet still might not be out.
Every year Canon, Panasonic, Sony and JVC announce something new, but it does take about 2 years to design the camera and another year and a half to contract out assembley, set up assembley lines and actually get products out the door.
That's why I don't think Scarlet will be out soon. In fact, if Jim is really redesigning everything, considering what the big 4 will have out then, he may decide he really doesn't want to build the Scarlet. It may be obsolete by the time it comes out.
Oh, I totally disagree with this. I don't think Jim, or whoever is bluffing. I think he is going to use the tech Canon is employing, and combine it, and make it better than what everybody is going to offer for the next 10 years.
They play to people who want quality, not the family video people, so they have an extreme edge over Canon there. Canon has the tech, but Red probably is more willing to give the features in a more complete package. I think that they had NO CLUE , AND NO FORESIGHT, about what could be done with these 35mm size chips, and a combo of interchangeable lenses. They just hadn't considered it UNTIL NOW. Now they'll steal these concepts, and use them to their advantage..... and ours.
Canon has the technology to do far more than they are willing. They do the minimal so they can keep making money off of substandard cameras for as long as the market will allow. So maybe in another 3 years Canon will take another swat at RED, and make some of their stuff obsolete, but for now, they can't afford to put a camera out that will cannibalize 90 percent of their OWN products. They have to wait until they are forced.
I also tend to agree with Ian. Canon had this technology in the wings, but I think that they were forced to come out of the gate with it much sooner than anticipated. Maybe by Red, or maybe not. But don't dismiss the power of a huge company like canon. They move slow when they CAN, but CAN move fast when they need to.
With all due respect, it's hard to imagine any camera in this space having such a long shelf life. This stuff is changing at an incredibly rapid pace. Only a few weeks ago, the Nikon D90 was the talk of the town. Now the Canon SLR has stolen its thunder. Next week, who knows? (I'm hoping we'll be talking about the new Canon XHA2.)
Sometime in the next few months, I'm going to buy a camera in the $3-5k range. I won't wait for Scarlet because that will be a LONG wait. For all we know, Jim could sign on one day and say, "Sorry, guys... the profit margins are so tight in this space that it doesn't make sense for us to produce Scarlet." While I don't EXPECT this to happen, it's a viable possibility.
So I'll end up buying a nice camera (probably a Sony unless Canon gives us something new) that will hopefully serve my needs for a while. And by the time 2011 rolls around, I'll start looking for the next camera...
Bored? Check out my blog! (video shot with HV20 & Sony EX1): LongLongHoneymoon.com
Out of all the Canon cameras I've owned, I'd never referred to any of them as substandard. In fact they all produced excellent results over a long time for me.
Same for the Panasonic products. Sony? Well, that's another discussion...
Guess what all these DSLRs will be capable of in one or two years? S'gonna be great!
On scarletuser it now says release will be at the end of 2009, but says again that release dates and features are subject to change. Jim also said the price may change, but will still be in that area.
Exactly! I haven't said one bad thing about the RED ONE or Scarlet; the RED ONE is a great cam, and the Scarlet will be as well, I'm sure.
That doesn't mean that RED is reshaping the world as we know it though.
Forced, how? And why?
You could apply that logic to any new development by any company...EVER. It's sort of a universal applicable theory.
No new development happens without there being a sinister, and ulterior motive.
...well....no matter what.....It's all good... Let them all continue to evolve... We'll all be in a better position to pick and choose more cooler toys to play with. I ain't cryin........yet...
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
I buzzed around on the Scarletuser site for a while today. Assuming this Jim guy is on the up and up (and it sounds like he is), I'm reading that the camera is being improved (i.e. second generation Scarlet) while maintaining the same general goal of price range and features, as well as a similar release date.
I guess we'll see.......
Because Canon is EVIL!!!!!!!! Ahhh,ha,ha,ha,ha!!!!!!!!!!!!Forced, how? And why?
You could apply that logic to any new development by any company...EVER. It's sort of a universal applicable theory.
No new development happens without there being a sinister, and ulterior motive.
Exactly, and it just takes a quick glance at all the D90 and Canon 5D MKII and Ikonoscop discussion on forums like this, DVXUSER and scarletuser itself to see why. Look at what threads are most active in the ScarletUser news forum. Jim had to change something just to keep their attention because it was becoming clear that the Scarlet as announced was not going to be the groundbreaking camera that Jim hoped it would be. Look at me! Look at me!
It is Nikon, Canon and Panasonic who are driving these changes in RED, not the other way around. None of those companies changed their plans based on a press release from RED about some pocket camera that RED might possibly release in a year or so. RED is forced to change its plans, or at least its press releases, based on real products from those companies.
Well....no matter what we spit out....it's all our own opinion. I'm convinced that all the players are paying attention to each other. That understanding alone leads me to believe that there is "some" influence on each others part. If they are not paying close attention to each other....then they would be real stupid. A brand new idea can easily change an industry...take that for what it's worth....but don't break it down too much. Look at Apple with their Ipods....MP3's had long been out before the IPOD... it took that small idea to bring Apple back into the limelight.....now that's their bread and butter.
Don't worry yourself too much if it seems that someone is giving Red some praise. I'm like Duke....show me...show me... I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime...rumors about this or that can cause lots of attention.....and no one wants their toes stepped on. Of course a small company like Red is forced to change its plans. They should stop blabbering about what they intend to do....and "Just Do it." Look at Ikon(whatevertheirnameis)...they blindsided everyone with their upcoming product. That should at least get Red's attention. And pretty soon others will catch on...
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
Plans for the original Scarlet is being scratched because it is OBVIOUS that the XHA1 / H1 replacement will have 5D type sensor. NO WAY the scarlet will compete with the quality of the sensor and interchangeable lenses.
I don't want to offend everybody but I have been following the threads here and at scarletuser and I have to admit I don't get what the big deal is over the 5D MkII's video capability.
Let's say you are right, which you might be, about a video camera coming from Canon, to be released at NAB along with Scarlet.
So, what kind of video would you see coming from a 5D sensor? 1080p at 30 fps in some sort of compressed container like AVCHD or one of the pro equivalents. Is this really all that different from my HV30 and DOF adapter?
As for comparing to Scarlet:
1080p vs 3K raw
30fps vs 120fps (or 180fps in burst mode)
$6000 vs $3000
I think the old Scarlet competed pretty well.
Last edited by d1g1t; 2008 September 23rd at 02:53.
dof adapters have huge limitations. So that there alone makes them not comparable.
Speaking of this theoretical Canon camcorder, just because the 5D2 uses AVCHD, it doesn't mean the camcorder will use the same type of compression. It will probably be better, it might even have variable frame rates, unlike the 30p on the 5D2.
Sure, it doesn't match the RAW format "proposed" by Red, but then again, a RAW image from a smallish 2/3 sensor will NEVEr compare to the image from a large sensor like the 5D2.
3K? Not everyone needs 3K, nor does everyone need 120fps. I'll take low light performance and interchangeable lenses with no crop factor any day over those features.
Also remember, you're comparing an imaginary camera to something that is real.
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