SCARLET by Red Digital Cinema

[Halsu]

Image resolution is not related to image quality. Pixel/Sensor size is related to image quality.

Original image resolution IS related to image quality, in more ways than just image sharpness.

Starting with a big image and scaling it down (supersampling) is actually very similar to having larger pixels in the first place. I.e. in RED ONE 4K's case, each pixel of 1080p footage wil be averaged from roughly 4 pixels. This reduces the noise by 12 dB.

Supersampling is also necessary to reduce aliasing problems.

Rhetoric question: Have you seen footage from the 2/3 Scarlet?

Or are you talking about the Red One and future S35 or FF models? Well then you are definitely paying appropriately for them. At that price, you shouldn't compare it to HDV and AVCHD "toys"

RED's specs rate scarlet's dynamic range to be twice as good as RED ONE (each stop means twice the info from the sensor).

RED ONE's full screen rolling shutter is about 1/80 sec - better than other current CMOS cameras.

But 3/4" as Scarlet can shoot 120 fps with full sensor, the rolling shutter time simply *must* be less than 1/120. That's as good as 35mm film (yes, that's where the term originally comes from).

[Braceface]

u guys crack me up....

Actually Halsu....I didn't even notice your link ealier. i thin this thread is moviing so fast that folks might have just missed it.

I know right!, Look, I don't want to do a back and forth with you, Halsu about what the HV20 can do and what it can't. You are just offended that I'm not a Scarlet fanboy. Fine. Go buy one. By the way, there wasn't any pumping in the clips you mentioned...... I had exposure locked in tv mode..... I know the one scene you are talking about, but that wasn't pumping, " although i honestly don't know what happened there. "
But a thinly vailed pointed attack about shooting in full auto just makes you look like a jerk, given that you should be able to determine the difference.
If not an attack than it could have just been ignorance, or the lack of pattern recognition that would lead you to determine that the film was NOT shot manual, and with an adaptor.....

[DaFireMedic]

Problem with compression is that many, like my self, are distracted by the image artifacts themselves, and do not get the experience they could. HV20 (and those after it from Canon) is great, but they do not give great indie filmmakers the possibilities they actually deserve. How much money you have, does not tell how good you are.

Just continue playing around with these HDV- and AVCHD-compressing (or any other timebased compression with low dynamic range) toys. They are okay if you do not aim for something really great in the future.

Many seem to think that RAW footage is uncompressed, but is not. RED claims that it is a "cleaner" compression, and it looks to be so, but it is not uncompressed.

I disagree with telling someone that their camera is a "toy" just because it uses HDV or AVCHD, and that if they keep using it that somehow it means that they are not aiming for something great. Such "toys" were not available just a few years ago, and have enabled plain folk such as I to obtain a video quality that was simply not available to the consumer or prosumer just a few years ago. But the bottom line is that its the person behind the camcorder, not the camcorder itself that makes the project great or not. There are people on this forum that could make a far better video with the HV30 than I could with the top of the line RED product. I know teenagers that certainly aspire to make something great, and all they have is a consumer HDV camcorder. And I have no doubt that they'll probably achieve it if they concentrate on the creative qualities and don't get sidetracked by the notion that they must have the latest and greatest equipment.

The HV20 is a fantastic camera for the low budget indie filmmaker. No, it doesn't give them every possibility, but at this price range Canon gave us more than any other company did.

That being said, I have already set aside money for Scarlet, if it turns out as claimed.

[Sem Skywalker]

Red is FAR above the others anyways. Only film is better, and will always be the best, though too expensive for real people these times.... Super-clean digital images have no soul in themselves, film has.

[booggerg]

Original image resolution IS related to image quality, in more ways than just image sharpness.

Depends on the final output format. If all I want is to show the final video on 720P or 1080P displays, I don't need the 3K resolution from the scarlet. I would care more about the latitude, low noise that I get from a lower resolution FF sensor.

[booggerg]

Red is FAR above the others anyways. Only film is better, and will always be the best, though too expensive for real people these times.... Super-clean digital images have no soul in themselves, film has.

Ur probably the type that subscribe to the "Leica Glow" phenomenon..

[Halsu]

You are just offended that I'm not a Scarlet fanboy. Fine. Go buy one.

I'm not offended at all. Seriously. I'm just trying to tell how things are.

ut a thinly vailed pointed attack about shooting in full auto just makes you look like a jerk, given that you should be able to determine the difference.

I didn't mean to offend, by "auto" i just meant "not locking the exposure" - that's what it looked like.

Believe or not, i'm trying to help you.

If not an attack than it could have just been ignorance, or the lack of pattern recognition that would lead you to determine that the film was NOT shot manual, and with an adaptor.....

Some like that bright look. I wanted to know how you shot, and if it was deliberate or not - if it was not deliberate, there's some tips for shooting high contrast scenes i've learned while testing the camera. I know for a fact that HV20 can perform better, if it's set up properly:

First of all, the amount entering the camera can be controlled with ND filters - look for my signature for a link to thread about using two polarizing filters to make a variable ND filter. It will allow you to use any shutter / f-stop combination you want, even in direct sunlight.

In bright daylight, shoot in cine mode, possibly lower the custom contrast setting, exposing the scene so that the highlights do not overexpose (use 100% zebra for that).

If your shadows are still too dark, let them be underexposed and brighten the midtones in post.

Following the above simple steps will give you much, much better results.

PS. I recognized the adapter shots ;-)

[fishops]

Quality is important. Thats why I don't want the Scarlet at 3000 dollars.
The basic Scarlet is a let-down without a 35mm sensor, interchangeable lenses, and a "complete" camera. It's a no brainer, err.... wait it's an only the brainer, lol. Just give me a whole camera... THEY are the ones that led people to believe that was in the works for under 3500 dollars.

Did you miss the fixed-lens version in the announcement? They haven't priced it, but the original fixed lens, complete camera Scarlet is right there in the announcement next to the 2/3" brain. I think it's a little odd they haven't put a price tag on it yet, but considering how long they've been harping on the "3K for under 3K" thing I would expect it to be... under 3K. I'll certainly be irked if it ends up more expensive than that, but let's not start claiming RED is going back on their promises. They haven't.

[Ian-T]

Depends on the final output format. If all I want is to show the final video on 720P or 1080P displays, I don't need the 3K resolution from the scarlet. I would care more about the latitude, low noise that I get from a lower resolution FF sensor.

I don't think that is what's being suggested. I think the idea of supersampling is what he was eluding to. I don't need to render anything beyong 1920x1080...but to manipulate a bigger image to begin with and downsampling to that size is what I want. No different from downsizing the HV20's 1440x1080 image to 720x480p and getting a much better image than the best Standard Definition cam out there. The image comes out more detailed this way. That's the kind of way I would use a Scarlet. You can't do that with any of these DSLRs...which is why I said they have limited potential...vs a Red.

[Halsu]

Depends on the final output format. If all I want is to show the final video on 720P or 1080P displays, I don't need the 3K resolution from the scarlet. I would care more about the latitude, low noise that I get from a lower resolution FF sensor.

Yes you do - because of the oversampling advantages i mentioned. No camera produces perfect results at the sensor's nominal resolution.

Edit: Ian said it better ;-)

[Ian-T]

Halsu....those images look great. I had to look twice cause I couldn't believe it was an HV20. I like the frist commercial and the War piece best. I definitley want one those chairs...

[Braceface]

I'm not offended at all. Seriously. I'm just trying to tell how things are.




I didn't mean to offend, by "auto" i just meant "not locking the exposure" - that's what it looked like.

Believe or not, i'm trying to help you.



Some like that bright look. I wanted to know how you shot, and if it was deliberate or not - if it was not deliberate, there's some tips for shooting high contrast scenes i've learned while testing the camera. I know for a fact that HV20 can perform better, if it's set up properly:

First of all, the amount entering the camera can be controlled with ND filters - look for my signature for a link to thread about using two polarizing filters to make a variable ND filter. It will allow you to use any shutter / f-stop combination you want, even in direct sunlight.

In bright daylight, shoot in cine mode, possibly lower the custom contrast setting, exposing the scene so that the highlights do not overexpose (use 100% zebra for that).

If your shadows are still too dark, let them be underexposed and brighten the midtones in post.

Following the above simple steps will give you much, much better results.

PS. I recognized the adapter shots ;-)

ND filters don't change the ratio of light behind the subject, to , the subject.
They only change the " amount of light entering the camera " ND's are good for if you need to control dof, but in my case that wasn't a problem.
With more dough I could have done it a whole lot better. NDs wouldn't solve a thing in my situation. Other options, mainly time, or diffusion netting, could have helped. NDs don't control what is in front of them, only what is between it and the camera. Putting sunglasses on the camera darkens the image. Its a pretty amazingly simple concept.
In order to light for the characters, I had to blow the highlights all to hell in the back-ground. I actually did use NDs and Polarizers but not for trying to control the ration of light between 2 sources,( which NDs don't do ).
I made a budgetory decision when I wrote the movie. I knew I would be blowing highlights in a lot of those situations. It wasn't practical time wise to go tremendously through agonizing and tedious routs due how much money I had to shoot with. I decided that although I wouldn't get near perfection, that I could make a pretty damn good little movie. Time, and money was the biggest wall, but I knew it would be, and made the decision that it wouldn't lose enough quality to prevent me from giving it a go.
Obviously if you really do know about small crews, and low budgets, then you would see how well I pulled it off for how complex it was.
I think I made the right decision to go ahead and shoot it. It gave me practical experience and I like the results. Actually, like I've said before, I still haven't seen anything as complex as what I did with a short, taking that much organization, prep, and that big of a cast, on this forum yet , that many locations, (with an HV20). If there is, I'd be honored to know. Also for under 2000 dollars.

[lordtangent]

Depends on the final output format. If all I want is to show the final video on 720P or 1080P displays, I don't need the 3K resolution from the scarlet. I would care more about the latitude, low noise that I get from a lower resolution FF sensor.

If you want the true MTF of "2k" from a one chip camera you need to over-sample with a "3k" sensor. 1080p is very close to 2k, so the same could be said for 1080p.

And as Halsu mentioned, by adveraging pixels you gain improved dynamic range as well. There is no reason to pass up on pixels if they are part of the deal. (Within reason, of course)

[Braceface]

All of this is greek to me. I just want a nice camera that takes 35mm lenses, and has a great PQ. I'll leave the rest up to y'all to debate. I know though, what the Scarlet doesn't give for the price. What it does give, I don't really care....

[Halsu]

Hmmm. The footage is " alright ". The adaptor stuff indeed had a weird bokeh that I didn't find pleasing.

It's basically the same as Twoneil adapter, with Canon EE-S matte glass. Not perfect, but works in some situations.

The other stuff was good, but I'd recommend making the war movie a lot brighter. It's too dark to see any detail.

It's supposed to be dawn on that scene, so it's darkish deliberately - the color correction was matched (roughly) to what they did in the actual film. It shouldn't be too dark to see though - it might be that the mpeg isn't playing with correct levels. This is quite common, i recall i.e. widows media player defaults to it (it expands studio RGB levels, clipping whites and crushing blacks).

Did it look darker than this??

I'm definitely more interested in a 35 mm. sensor.
Thanks for showing your work. "not bad"

You're desire for shallow DOF is pretty well known by now ;-)

Fixed lens 2/3" Scarlet will have about two f-stops shallower DOF than HV20 has zoomed in. AFAIK this means there's "four times more blur". One can use faster lenses in the interchangeable lens Scarlet, so shooting with i.e. a fast f1.4 lens means there will be "eight times more blur".

This gives about the same DOF results as shooting with S35mm with f4 (which is what photographers generally aim for).

[Braceface]

Hey, if its supposed to be dawn, then sorry about that. I should have figured that I would need the context before running my mouth.... Nice.

[Halsu]

ND filters don't change the ratio of light behind the subject, to , the subject.
They only change the " amount of light entering the camera "

That's what i implied, when said you can use it to set HV20 to any f-stop / shutter speed combo you wish.

Did you read the rest of my post? The techniques i mentioned should really help with high contrast scenes.

[Braceface]

I'll definitely do some tests and try it out. Hopefully it works for me like it does for you.
I'm not a good color grader at all. Every time I add or subtract anything I have to be subtle or the image looks wrong to me, but then, I haven't tried your approach, yet.

[Halsu]

Halsu....those images look great. I had to look twice cause I couldn't believe it was an HV20. I like the frist commercial and the War piece best. I definitley want one those chairs...

Thanks ;-)

You can buy the chairs from here, but they're not exactly cheap:
http://www.designeeroaarnio.com/epag...ObjectID=44268

...i'd rather buy a Scarlet AND MKII with that kind of money ;-)

[Halsu]

I'll definitely do some tests and try it out. Hopefully it works for me like it does for you.
I'm not a good color grader at all. Every time I add or subtract anything I have to be subtle or the image looks wrong to me, but then, I haven't tried your approach, yet.

Depending on your editing software, what you should look for is "gamma" setting. It leaves whites and blacks as they were and corrects the midtones. It's much better way to control image brightnes than adjusting "brightness" (as silly as it sounds).

When you're familiar with it, try "curves" adjustments - they basically do the same thing, but allow more control (but are also more difficult to adjust).

[Duke]

Did you miss the fixed-lens version in the announcement? They haven't priced it, but the original fixed lens, complete camera Scarlet is right there in the announcement next to the 2/3" brain. I think it's a little odd they haven't put a price tag on it yet, but considering how long they've been harping on the "3K for under 3K" thing I would expect it to be... under 3K. I'll certainly be irked if it ends up more expensive than that, but let's not start claiming RED is going back on their promises. They haven't.

Jim has posted saying it's between $3k and $4k, so $3,500 is going to be close.

[lordtangent]

Between $3k and $4k is still an excellent price as far as I'm concerned, especially if they can get it out around when they are claiming.

[booggerg]

Between $3k and $4k is still an excellent price as far as I'm concerned, especially if they can get it out around when they are claiming.

Does it come with he side grip? top handle? flip out LCD?

[lordtangent]

If it is a functional kit for something around $3k - $4k then I would be happy.

Though, I'm really tempted to go bigger and get the s35 version, just for the Canon mount (I have a lot of Canon lenses.)

It's all speculation until it ships though.

[Ian-T]

I think I would be satisfied with the fixed lens version of this cam. Especially if it behaves in the way Halsu is suggesting. It seems like it would be better than most anything out there. Of course the removable lens system would be good but that's a serious investment to follow through with. I'm still waiting on the specs...but as long as it's "mostly" the same cam he announced months back...then I will be satisfied.