HV20 Audio Test - Tell me if this sound what it should be

[jimbaran]

Hello,

Just got my HV20 and Rode Video Mic. I hear a very noticeable high pitch noise coming out of the camcorder when it's on Tape mode. I put together an Audio Test with:

• HV20's Built in Mic
• Rode Video Mic
• Rode Video Mic with High Pass Filter
• Rode Video Mic with HV20's Mic Attenuator ON

Can anyone confirm that you have the same experience with HV20's audio?

I can still hear the motor with Rode Videomic. And when I turn on HV20's mic attenuater ON, I can hear a loud "hiss" noise.

Please listen and appreciate any feedback.

Link : http://hv20.info/yopu/AudioTest.mov

Thanks again!

[bluegrass]

I thought the second one was pretty good. I did hear a low rumble but I thought the voice sounded the best. I would never depend on good quality audio from 7 feet away from the mic though. I would like to hear the tests when you are about 2 feet from the mic.

[jimbaran]

Bluegrass -- Thanks for your comment.

Reason that I set it up for 7 feet since I want to test how good is the audio sounded from that far. I think your comment is very valuable. I agree with you that the Rode Videomic helped the audio and made it sound much better.

Thanks for your comment.

Any other can comment on this?

Thanks.

[Mal]

That goes to show how $150 can be worth it!
Nice test, jimbaran.

Rode Videomic clearly is MUCH better than the built in mics.

[jimbaran]

Thanks Mal.

I have an old mono Azden wireless mic as well that I am planning to try and put the sample here to compare.

This is an awesome cam and I love it. Still learning a lot on the workflow now.

Thanks again.

[ardo]

Thanks Mal.

I have an old mono Azden wireless mic as well that I am planning to try and put the sample here to compare.

Personally, I think Azden is worth than HV20's own built-in mike. I have the ECZ-990 that I got 4 years ago for my Sony DCR-PC100. I always blamed poor sound quality on Sony's automatic gain control that cannot be turned off. I tried it with the HV20 2 days ago with no AGC - it sucks.

[freeflight]

To me, the last option produces the cleanest voice, though it is a little low on the volume. Is this caused by the mic attenuator?

I don't hear the lound hiss you mentioned.

Hello,

Just got my HV20 and Rode Video Mic. I hear a very noticeable high pitch noise coming out of the camcorder when it's on Tape mode. I put together an Audio Test with:

• HV20's Built in Mic
• Rode Video Mic
• Rode Video Mic with High Pass Filter
• Rode Video Mic with HV20's Mic Attenuator ON

Can anyone confirm that you have the same experience with HV20's audio?

I can still hear the motor with Rode Videomic. And when I turn on HV20's mic attenuater ON, I can hear a loud "hiss" noise.

Thanks again!

[zephyrnoid]

Well, I'm comming to some interesting conclusions from my experiences.
- There is a base level of internal noise generated on tape if ANY mic is used with the HV20, built in or external. You want no noise? just stick a dummy plug into the MIC>In socket and roll tape! No mic = no noise.
- With any mic, built-in or external, the HV20 Attenuator limits level roll-off and reduces level which in effect, minimize noise as well.
- External Mic pre-amps increase levels AND noise
- The most effective solutions unfortunately are inconvenient as well. Use wired or wireless Lavalier or shotgun or hand held mics close to the subject. Here's why. with the mic as close to the subject as possible, background noise is more effectively rejected AND you have a greater Signal to Noise ratio by virtue of the fact that you are capturing a greated degree of level from the subject than is being introduced by the camera's electronics.
HERE ARE MY FORMULAE
For one on-camera mic- Sennheiser ME66/K6 > BeachTek DXA-2s (Left) > HV20 MIC IN > ATT ON (Auto Level)
For Mixed Mic (This is the best for generating audio depth and greatest S/N ratio- Sennheiser ME66/K6 > BeachTek DXA-2s (Left) > HV20 MIC IN > ATT ON (Auto Level) and Wired or Wireless Handheld (Shure SM58)... or Wired Lav (Mine is Sony ECM44B) or Wireless Lav (Mine is Sennheiser EW100) >BeachTek DXA-2s (Right) > HV20 MIC IN > ATT ON (Auto Level)

The bad news of all this is that turning Mic ATT off in the HV20 is usefull ONLY in a worst case scenario where you have so little level coming from the subject that you might as well have no audio on at all. The only example I can give is surveillance where ANY intelligible audio is better than nothing. Finally, I'm going to suggest that everyone capture a 30-60 second audio clip as 'ambient' for usual purpose plus to act as a target for software filtration.

[TheDingo]

- There is a base level of internal noise generated on tape if ANY mic is used with the HV20, built in or external.

Yes, but it's very very low with the right equipment. Using a BeachTek DXA-2s set to line-in levels, connected to a Sound Devices MM-1 mic pre-amp set to 36 dB gain ( normal for most of my mics ), I get a noise floor of -80 dB with no mic connected. With a mic connected it depends on the ambient noise of the room, which is usually too noisy to reach the noise floor with the mic. ( around -55 dB in a quiet room )

- External Mic pre-amps increase levels AND noise

Perhaps in theory, but my own experience has been the exact opposite. The best sound I can get from my HV20 is using a BeachTek adapter set to line-in levels, connected to a good mic pre-amp. I also use a GTC Tone Plug with the pre-amp to set the proper manual sound level on my HV20.

Using this set-up I am almost always able to record down to the ambient room noise, with no perceptable hiss from the HV20 itself.

The biggest problem I find with most prosumer and high-end consumer cameras are there cheap microphone pre-amps. The only way to get great sound is to turn the HV20's mic pre-amp down as low as possible, which usually means you need a high quality pre-amp ( and a BeachTek unit ) to do this.

The bad news of all this is that turning Mic ATT off in the HV20 is usefull ONLY in a worst case scenario where you have so little level coming from the subject that you might as well have no audio on at all.

I completely disagree with this statement. I own the Rode Mono VideoMic, and from my experience the best signal you can get from the Rode VideoMic is to:

- Set the Rode Mic to the 0 dB setting
- Use the low-freequency roll-off feature when necessary
- Set your HV20 Mic ATT to off
- Set your HV20 to manual sound level control
- Manually adjust the sound level so that your sound source is peaking next to the -12 dB marker in the HV20 audio level display. This might sound a little quiet in camera, but it can be easily adjusted when you are editing.
- Use a good pair of headphones that will block most outside noise, so you can actually hear what you are getting from your HV20. Sennheiser and Sony make some very good, cheap DJ headphones in the $50 - 60 range that work great.

...Lastly, remember that the best microphone distance to record a person speaking is 1 - 4 feet depending on the mic, which means that you either have to have it in the shot, or have it just out of frame. Further away than 4 feet, you will lose much of the sound quality.

[freeflight]

This is exactly my experience. I did some test in a quiet room to tape my newborn when she makes her baby noise. Distance is 2-4 feet. Sony MDR-7506 headphone to monitor the sound and review on computer.
1. Built-in mic, Auto mic level, Mic ATT off => terrible motor noise, control noise (zooming)
2. Built-in mic, Manual mic level, Mic ATT off => slight better and still bad motor noise and control noise (zooming)
3. ATR-25 on camera, Manual mic level, Mic ATT off => most motor/control noise is gone, but a high frequency hiss
4. ATR-25 on camera, Manual mic level, Mic ATT on => Sound level is really low, I had to increase mic level. motor/control noise is gone; high frequency hiss is mostly gone, but there is still some base noise.

I also tried to handhold mic, but I am not hear much difference with mic on camera.

If I upgrade to SVM, would I be able to remove all or most of the base noise?

Well, I'm comming to some interesting conclusions from my experiences.
- There is a base level of internal noise generated on tape if ANY mic is used with the HV20, built in or external. You want no noise? just stick a dummy plug into the MIC>In socket and roll tape! No mic = no noise.
- With any mic, built-in or external, the HV20 Attenuator limits level roll-off and reduces level which in effect, minimize noise as well.

[TheDingo]

If I upgrade to SVM, would I be able to remove all or most of the base noise?

Yes, if you use it correctly, and manually set the mic level on your HV20.
( It's very easy to do )

Remember that the Mono and Stereo Rode VideoMics are completely different designs, so buy the one that best suits your needs.

The Mono mic is a shotgun mic, best suited to picking up sound directly in front of the camera.

The Stero mic is a cardioid mic with a pretty wide sound pick-up range, so it's good when you want to record very immersive sound from all around you.

[freeflight]

I am taping my newborn from 3-4 feet away and want to record her sound as clear as I can. If I upgrade, which one is better for me (VM or SVM)?

Thanks.

Yes, if you use it correctly, and manually set the mic level on your HV20.
( It's very easy to do )

Remember that the Mono and Stereo Rode VideoMics are completely different designs, so buy the one that best suits your needs.

The Mono mic is a shotgun mic, best suited to picking up sound directly in front of the camera.

The Stero mic is a cardioid mic with a pretty wide sound pick-up range, so it's good when you want to record very immersive sound from all around you.

[Dane in Pella]

I am looking for a mic that will help me in a school auditorium for a band concert. My first thought was a stereo videomic or the mono videomic. With the commnets on keeping the mic close to the subject maybe a wireless lapel mic is a better idea. I found a low $ one at www.dak2000.com.
Specifically:
2030_camMain450.jpg
Camcorder No Cable Mic Lavalier Lapel
Just $79.95 - Order No. 2061 - ($6.95 P&H)

Anyone know if it is worth the money?

Thanks

[markg143]

i instantly ejaculated when i heard this

[Paul Tarlevs]

So is:

Set the Rode Mic to the 0 dB setting
- Use the low-freequency roll-off feature when necessary
- Set your HV20 Mic ATT to off
- Set your HV20 to manual sound level control
- Manually adjust the sound level so that your sound source is peaking next to the -12 dB marker in the HV20 audio level display. This might sound a little quiet in camera, but it can be easily adjusted when you are editing.



your best bet?

Because I have an HV30 and the same mic, and I'm tired of switching trough settings. It's annoying.

[HueyNRolf]

Isn't the attenuator a limiter? I usually have it on.
If you record at -12db peak, it's unlikely to kick in, no?
I usually aim for -6db peak and have no problems with limiter dulling (or what ever you call it).
BTW, I couldn't agree more with keeping the record levels low. My rule of thumb is that if it sounds too quiet when you review your shoot on the TV (about half as loud as a TV channel), then the level is probably correct. If your NLE doesn't have a normalizer, then get Audacity, works like a charm and it's free.

Cheers,
HnR

[HueyNRolf]

Hello Paul,

You're quite right, those menus are fiddley, aren't they?
How nice it would be to have dedicated knobs and switches for white bal, exposure, audio levels etc... not to mention focus and zoom rings on the lens. Well, welcome to the next level of prosumer cams... nice, but pricey.

You have to admit that the HV30 gives a lot of bang for the buck, though, no?

[Paul Tarlevs]

Hello Paul,

You're quite right, those menus are fiddley, aren't they?
How nice it would be to have dedicated knobs and switches for white bal, exposure, audio levels etc... not to mention focus and zoom rings on the lens. Well, welcome to the next level of prosumer cams... nice, but pricey.

You have to admit that the HV30 gives a lot of bang for the buck, though, no?

Well yeah, the HV30 IS an AMAZINIG camera, but it's got it's ups and downs.

I seriously am getting so tired of going through settings, so I'll wait until someone posts up the correct settings by what they have experienced.

[bigjezza]

I've got a Rode SVM. My god, it is great when on an extension and right next to my 2 month old.

Stick it on the camera, and that seems to be a recipe for limited results.

I didn't notice the noise on my Panasonic HDTV, or the camera. It wasn't until I fired up my HT with Mordaunt-Short speakers that the sound slapped me in the face.

I've read a few suggestions:

Piece of foam or even magazines between mic and cam
950HZ in post
Play with ATT and rec levels
Turn on low frequency notch on Rode.
Sonic Foundry NR - Ooops I mean Sony NR

I'm going to spend the weekend mucking around with it.

I dont like the Sonic Foundry Noise Reduction route. Back in 1998-99 I did a whole bunch of tape to CD conversions, and used the plugin. Sure it sounded OK on my Sony CD Boombox thing, but when played back on high quality speakers I could hear artifacts after processing.

So anywhoo, if there are any other suggestions I'd be grateful, and give them a bash. If there aren't, I'll just tryout the options above and decide from that.

[laura]

but how about the headphones levels? Is it quite decent to leave then at half the power ? or should we maximise headphones volume? I mean what is the best setting to get the "real" sorf of sound that you would get on playback?

thanks

[HueyNRolf]

Laura, circumaural headphones (Sennheiser HD280 Pro or equivalent) MUST be used and the HV headphone out MUST be set at FULL GALLOP.

Cheers,
-HnR

[laura]

Thank you kindly HueyHRolf

I stuck my video mic on a fishing rode with that kind of plastic/flexible ducktape- light, extendable, no squeaking. It helps to have a sound assistant thou. Cheers

[HueyNRolf]

"a fishing rode"


Have fun and do a nice job!
-HnR

[Paul Tarlevs]

I've got people telling me to set it at -10db mic att off, and manual volume controls.

So what should it be?

[HueyNRolf]

Paul,

The auto gain is clearly unpopular, so manual level is the way, right?
You also know that the level should peak between -12 and -6db and you know why. As for the attenuator, this will prevent clipping in the event of a sudden increase in the sound you're recording; say you set your level for normal speech and the talent was to start shouting. I use it, but if your levels are correct to start with, it's probably redundant.

You also know that the audio will be too low for your finished job and will need normalizing. You'll need to do this in your NLE or export to an audio editor like Audacity.

So Paul, why don't you just give it a go and let us know how you get on.

Cheers,
HnR