output back to tape

[tropical]

Hi, I am about to buy the HV20, and just before I do, just wanted to ask a couple of questions, to be sure I am not making a mistake !!

1/ Outputting back to tape : lets say I shoot the raw footage, transfer to my PC, then edit it on Premiere. I now want to keep a permanant record of this new edited footage. Can I output it back to tape on the HV20?? The reason I ask is that I just downloaded the pdf manual from Canon, and it made no reference to this. It only seemed to mention line-in for analogue sources. eg taking footage from and old VCR or other analogue source. It did not mention any ability to output edited footage back to the HV20

2/ Playing the camera on HDTV. I think the HV20 kit does not include HDMI cables, but does include component. Is it woth biying the HDMI, or is the quality the same as component? The TV I will be watching on is a sort of hybrid type. Made by JVC, it is rear projection, with HDMI input, but is actually analogue rather than digital. Which sort of leads one to ask : whilst it has HDMI input, it is still analogue... will I even be able to appreciate the quality Of HD on an analogue type tv??!

3/ This may be a dumb question ... (hope not) the reason I want to output back to tape (after editing it) is that there doesn't seem to be a sensibly priced way to output it to Hi def disc. Am I right in thinking a Hi Def burner, in a pc is extremely expensive? How are other people keeping permanant copies of their edited Hi Def footage?? It would be a shame to downgrade the finished product to SD DVD

4/ There is a new Sony coming out, utilizing AVCHD, the Sony HDR-SR7. I know it may annoy die-hard fans of HDV to even mention this format, but honestly speaking is it worth looking at this format?

Sorry for the lengthy questions. Much appreciate anyone giving their thoughts.

[tropical]

Hi, I am about to buy the HV20, and just before I do, just wanted to ask a couple of questions, to be sure I am not making a mistake !!

1/ Outputting back to tape : lets say I shoot the raw footage, transfer to my PC, then edit it on Premiere. I now want to keep a permanant record of this new edited footage. Can I output it back to tape on the HV20?? The reason I ask is that I just downloaded the pdf manual from Canon, and it made no reference to this. It only seemed to mention line-in for analogue sources. eg taking footage from and old VCR or other analogue source. It did not mention any ability to output edited footage back to the HV20

2/ Playing the camera on HDTV. I think the HV20 kit does not include HDMI cables, but does include component. Is it woth biying the HDMI, or is the quality the same as component? The TV I will be watching on is a sort of hybrid type. Made by JVC, it is rear projection, with HDMI input, but is actually analogue rather than digital. Which sort of leads one to ask : whilst it has HDMI input, it is still analogue... will I even be able to appreciate the quality Of HD on an analogue type tv??!

3/ This may be a dumb question ... (hope not) the reason I want to output back to tape (after editing it) is that there doesn't seem to be a sensibly priced way to output it to Hi def disc. Am I right in thinking a Hi Def burner, in a pc is extremely expensive? How are other people keeping permanant copies of their edited Hi Def footage?? It would be a shame to downgrade the finished product to SD DVD

4/ There is a new Sony coming out, utilizing AVCHD, the Sony HDR-SR7. I know it may annoy die-hard fans of HDV to even mention this format, but honestly speaking is it worth looking at this format?

Sorry for the lengthy questions. Much appreciate anyone giving their thoughts.

[terjeber]

1/ Yes, you can output back to tape from your NLE
2/ No HDMI included, if you have an HD TV, HDMI is worth it
3/ Multiple options here, you could go with one of the DVD players on the market today that supports alternative HD formats, such as DIVX players with HD and HDMI support. The easiest solution currently, if you don't want to spend $400 on a HD DVD burner, is to print to tape or to get a big harddrive or two.
4/ At the moment, the Canon seems to be the better choice, I am sure that would change in the future. AVCHD is hard to edit, and currently the quality doesn't seem to be on par with the HDV from Canon.

[mik]

about no 4. with every year, the avchd gets new versions. it's not the same as last year, you can't compare videos from different generation camcorders. you'll just have to check it's revision with every new camcorder and see it's current quality. for editing it requires more cpu power as it's mpeg4 not mpeg2, and as far as i know only sony's vegas video supports all it's variants. avchd it is ok but there's a lot of info you should know so you'd better ask about it over at some sony forum. they should also know a lot more about sr7.

about no 1. if you read the manual at page 77 and 67 you see you can record video with the camera using the firewire connection.

and no more double posts on multiple sections of the forum!

[Lunchbox]

(1) Yes, you can output back to tape. I loaded the edited m2t file to Premiere Pro and hit File, Export, Export to tape. It does take a while before the recording starts. It's a digital to digital connection. The analog-in is good when you want to convert old VHS to DV tape and stored digitally.

(2) It doesn't come with HDMI cable. It's cheap anyway. I got mine from Firefold.com for about $5. Don't go crazy getting the $100 from Bestbuy or Circuit City. They are the same cable.

As I believe HDMI is digital to digital. Unless there is some weird conversion done by your JVC TV. But I don't see any reason they have to adjust the HDMI spec as it's a standard to send both digital video and audio signal from one device to another.

(4) AVCHD uses a higher compression ratio than HDV. It makes it more difficult to do frame-by-frame edit. If you don't intent to do a lot of editing, why not get one of those. It's fast and easy. No need to carry tapes.

[Terfyn]

No.2.HDMI cables are not included in the PAL kit but Component out into the RGB input gives a comparable picture, the AV (Red and White) supplies the sound. I bought an HDMI cable for £14.50 and it works great!

No.3.Pinnacle Studio 11 Plus burns HD DVDs on a standard burner. AVCHD will become available with an update. I quote from the manual: "Studio Plus version 11.0 will burn HD DVD formatted disks (on standard DVD media) which are playable on HD DVD players. However at this time, these disks cannot be played on the Microsoft Xbox 360 due to the current firmware of the Xbox. Studio 11 will not burn disks which can be played back on Blue-Ray players at this time. A subsequent Free update will provide this compatability."

[bluegrass]

1/ Yes, you can output back to tape from your NLE
2/ No HDMI included, if you have an HD TV, HDMI is worth it
3/ Multiple options here, you could go with one of the DVD players on the market today that supports alternative HD formats, such as DIVX players with HD and HDMI support. The easiest solution currently, if you don't want to spend $400 on a HD DVD burner, is to print to tape or to get a big harddrive or two.
4/ At the moment, the Canon seems to be the better choice, I am sure that would change in the future. AVCHD is hard to edit, and currently the quality doesn't seem to be on par with the HDV from Canon.

Since I just payed $500 not too long ago for an HD DVD player, I can't believe you can buy an HD DVD burner for $400. The last time I was at CompUSA they didn't even have blank HD DVD's, only Blu ray. Just out of curiousity, the other day I Googled around to see if any company was manufacturing an HD DVD burner and I couldn't find any. Maybe you could post a link to information on HD DVD burners. Are you speaking of a desktop burner or one that connects to you computer. If they are available for a computer at $400 and there is burning software out there, I would snatch one of those puppies up in a heartbeat. No one on this forum has even mentioned burning their own HD HDV's from their RLE.

[mik]

No.2.HDMI cables are not included in the PAL kit but Component out into the RGB input gives a comparable picture"

component out is NOT pal rgb from a scart connector. the cables have the same colors but it's a different thing. there are adaptors but they cost about $100.

[terjeber]

I can't believe you can buy an HD DVD burner for $400.

Sorry, should have been more specific. I don't think you can buy a HD DVD burner out there for any price (for the home market), can you? You can however buy Blu-Ray burners for just above $400. Given the movement currently in the market, I think I would bet on Blu-Ray, but there is a chance that neither of the formats will ever take off.

No one on this forum has even mentioned burning their own HD HDV's from their RLE.

I have seen the acronym RLE used a number of times on this forum. What is an RLE, and how does it compare to an NLE?

[Terfyn]

component out is NOT pal rgb from a scart connector. the cables have the same colors but it's a different thing. there are adaptors but they cost about $100.

The component out gives a Red, Green and Blue video signal that is compatible with the 1080i D3 standard. I did not mention the RGB signal of a SCART socket. The standard in the UK is Pal.

[bluegrass]

Sorry, should have been more specific. I don't think you can buy a HD DVD burner out there for any price (for the home market), can you? You can however buy Blu-Ray burners for just above $400. Given the movement currently in the market, I think I would bet on Blu-Ray, but there is a chance that neither of the formats will ever take off.



I have seen the acronym RLE used a number of times on this forum. What is an RLE, and how does it compare to an NLE?

Tergeber. I'm sorry, I get all these damn acronyms screwed up. What I meant was your application for captureing, editing, and outputing.

One comment about the Blu ray versus HD DVD. I just got back from Best Buy awhile ago and I decided to look to see what they had in high def movies. Most of the time I see about an equal split between the two types. Today, it caught my attention that there was about double the rows of HD DVD over the Blu ray. I hate the fact that they have two factions going right now but I guess it will all work out in the wash. I already went with the HD DVD but I wouldn't "dis" the Blu ray. Both sides have major manufacturers and studios behind them. A lot of you are probably too young to remember the Beta vs VHS wars.

[Lunchbox]

I was in the Adobe Conference few days ago. Adobe is going Blu-Ray which means I can export to Blu-Ray directly from Premiere or Encore. Someone asked the Adobe guy why not HD DVD. That guy said the reason behind was cost of Blu-ray and availability is much better. Every Playstation can play BD, burner are half the cost of HD DVD burner. I am like, "what is he talking about".

Bluegrass, do you own a HD DVD burner? what brand and how much? Were you able to burn some HD DVD video disc?

[terjeber]

I already went with the HD DVD but I wouldn't "dis" the Blu ray. Both sides have major manufacturers and studios behind them. A lot of you are probably too young to remember the Beta vs VHS wars.

I have no problem remembering that war, I had friends who even went with the third alternative, can't remember what it was called, something with 2000. Anyway, you are right, there is no clear winner in this yet, except in the hobbyist movie-maker area where Blu-Ray is not only the clear winner, but the only player. There are no HD DVD burners out there, and I have not heard that there are any in the pipeline.

[terjeber]

I am like, "what is he talking about".

Bluegrass, do you own a HD DVD burner? what brand and how much? Were you able to burn some HD DVD video disc?

I have to add that sentiment to your comment. Who sells HD DVD burners? I am not aware of any on the market at all. So when he says that Blu-Ray burners are half the price I am not sure what he is talking about, half the price of what?

[tropical]

Thanks everybody for all the answers. A great help.

So, I'm really back to square 1 - by that I mean if there aren't any PC burners, blu ray or HD DVD, what medium do people output from their NLE that is high def, not SD?? If I want to keep a permanant record of my vacation that I can play on my HDTV what do I use? I gather that HDV edited and then burned onto regular DVD will only give 30 mins at best. What if my production is 1 hour or so? Must I output onto removable hard disk (or xbox etc) and play it as a Divx or such like??

Seems that tlll prices come down, or a burner is invented, there is no way to output to a disc ??

Thanks again.

[Lunchbox]

What I usually do is,

1. Capture to .m2t from HV20
2. Edit in Premiere Pro
3. Export to the new edited .m2t and record back to tape.
4. Export to 720x480 MPEG-2 (widescreen) for DVD authoring
4. Export to 1280x720 wmv for LAN
5. Export to 640x360 for web streaming
6. Export to 320x240 for youtube

If later on HD DVD or Blu-Ray availability gets better, I can always encode the edited m2t to H.264 for that purpose.

You can also keep your original tapes as they are cheap.

[terjeber]

Thanks everybody for all the answers. A great help.

So, I'm really back to square 1 - by that I mean if there aren't any PC burners, blu ray or HD DVD, what medium do people output from their NLE that is high def, not SD??

I am not quite sure where you got the notion that there are no Blu-Ray burners. There are several Blu-Ray burners on the market currently priced from about $450 and up to about $900.

To add to the alternatives:

You could get a regular DVD player that is DivX HD capable and has an component or HDMI interface, there are a few. Burn to DivX HD and watch it on that.

Check http://www.divx.com/products/hw/browse.php?c=7

[pc001]

Export back to Tape from Premiere requires re-rendering. Besides taking a veryyyyyy long time, it also degraded the picture quality greatly (It becomes blurry), unless you have AspectHD or something like that. This is from some posts I read.

Perry

[bluegrass]

I have to add that sentiment to your comment. Who sells HD DVD burners? I am not aware of any on the market at all. So when he says that Blu-Ray burners are half the price I am not sure what he is talking about, half the price of what?

Unless you're very rich, forget about burning HD video right now to Blu ray or HD DVD disks (like you say, they aren't even out yet). You could however with the right NLE (such as Studio 10.7 or 11) burn HDV to a standard DVD or dual depth DVD and play on an HD DVD player such as Toshiba's (what I have) or a X360 HD DVD drive.

You could save your HD content to your computers hard drive and attach the computer to an HD monitor or TV and watch an edited file that way.

I've been trying to say for awhile now, that the dirty little secret about HDV video is that we're ahead of the curve ball as we tape in HD. We are actually for the most part, taping HDV for future, unless you want to just play the HDV you've taped from your camcorder unedited, to your HDTV or HD monitor. Don't be fooled into thinking we're all producing and edited HD video and sitting back and watching them on our big screen. We're not. I'm building a hell of a library of some great HD content for perhaps a year or two down the road when prices come down to where a typical consumer can afford the hardware that is needed to play our content on our big screen HD displays.

[ronnylov]

HD-DVD on standard DVD discs is called 3x DVD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD#3x_DVD

It is a stupid name but the reason is that it plays with triple speed compared to standard DVD-Video and this makes it possible to use the higher bitrates that high definition video requires. But the downside is that the play time will be shorter. With havy compression like h.264 format or VC-1 and double layer discs you can still get acceptable playtime and quality, especially if you limit the resolution to 1280x720 and use double layer DVD.

This is a similar situation we had when DVD-burners were expensive. You could create a DVD on CD-R and call it miniDVD but the compability of these discs were low with standalone players but later when copied to DVD they worked perfectly. You could also make CVD or SVCD and similar things that could be played on some standalone players but they needed to be converted before it could be used on DVD. If you did not have a backup of the original videos in DV format you would have been regretting it then.

But maybe Bluray format "wins" and then what to do with these 3x DVD's? I think I will be outputting everything to HDV tape as backup for the future. You can also burn the HDV files in raw format as data on DVD-R just like you can with DV-files. This way you can backup 20 minutes of HDV on a single layer DVD. It is a little bit more convenient to import the video from DVD discs compared to HDV tapes. The standalone player's may not play such raw HDV files but you can always convert them in a computer to whatever format you'll need in the future.

[mdw]

I have no problem remembering that war, I had friends who even went with the third alternative, can't remember what it was called, something with 2000.

The third format was "Video 2000" -- arguably the best one of the three.

-mdw