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Thread: getting rid of gain without a light source

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    Senior Member b.soysal's Avatar
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    Lightbulb getting rid of gain without a light source (cell phone trick without a cellphone)

    first of all this is a very easy idea based on the cellphone trick (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=180) with a slight difference and most probably somebody thought of this idea before me. problem is, it's not practical trying to adjust the aperture while holding a cellphone in front of the lens, especially when working with many impatient actors.

    if you know the cell phone trick, just read below the red line at the bottom.

    if this was posted before me, moderators please delete the post. anyway, here we go:

    This method is based on this idea: in a dark enviroment camcorder first opens the aperture wider to f1.8. When it comes to f1.8, the only way to lighten up the image is to add gain. So in dark enviroments, camcorder adds gain in 1.5db steps. Maximum gain is 27db, so there are 18 steps of gain available. So it goes like this:

    ...
    f/2.8 0dB
    f/2.6 0dB
    f/2.4 0dB
    f/2.2 0dB
    f/2.0 0dB
    f/1.8 0dB
    f/1.8 1.5dB
    f/1.8 3dB
    f/1.8 4.5db
    ...

    But image with gain is noisy and most people prefer a darker image with less noise. So here i am trying to tell how to get rid of the noise.

    First of all zoom out till it's at widest angle. adjust your camcorder to shutter priority mode and adjust your shutter (I personally prefer 1/48 shutter in 24p mode). Then lock your exposure (click on the joystick, press down, you'll see EXP on the little menu, then press up, exposure is locked). Then check your aperture by half-pressing the photo button(you should have a mini-sd card inserted). If aperture is at f1.8, probably there is gain. Push the jostick left and slide the exposure one step. check your aperture again by half-pressing the photo button. Repeat it till you find f/2.0. When you find f2.0 you now know where the gain starts and you can control aperture. If you slide exposure one step to the right, you'll get an image at f1.8 without gain.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    The problem is, when you are in a very dark enviroment, even if you push the exposure all the way to the left, you may not be able to skip from f1.8 to f2.0, because when adjusting exposure there are 11 steps to the left and 11 steps to the right but in camcorder there are 18 steps of gain available.
    So if you push all the 11 steps to the left and still at f1.8 double push up button on the joystick (just like double clicking on a mouse). Do it fast.
    So we are fooling the camcorder by setting the exposure to automatic but before the camcorder understands what's going on we lock the exposure again
    Now, the exposure slider is centered and we have another 11 steps available to the left again. Slide the exposure to the left until you find f2.0.

    Hope that helps.
    Please correct me if I made any mistakes.
    Last edited by b.soysal; 2008 February 25th at 01:43.
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    Moderator koolpenguin89's Avatar
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    or just shoot in spotlight mode: see here. however, if ur shooting in 24p and wanna get a 1/48th shutter speed for a filmic look, you would need to shoot in tv mode, so your method does help alot. thanks for the info.

    dylan

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    I just experimented with HDV Datamonitor and with my HV20 in Cinemode and my assumptions were right: HV20 stays at zero gain when it shows 1/50th shutter speed in Cinemode so that`s it. Push the manual exposure so far that it will give you 1/50th reading when you half-press the photo button but just that much, if the aperture value starts to change push it back one click you`ll still be at zero gain.

    Cheers,
    T
    Last edited by Tõnis; 2008 February 25th at 07:18.

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    Senior Member b.soysal's Avatar
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    I love this camcorder because of its ability to show wonderful detail but in cinemode you lose a lot of detail, that's why I don't prefer cinemode.
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    Senior Member Charles Lowthian's Avatar
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    That is really neat! i've never even seen F21 on my HV20. Thanks for sharing "ahmetceylan"

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    Moderator koolpenguin89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmetceylan View Post
    I love this camcorder because of its ability to show wonderful detail but in cinemode you lose a lot of detail, that's why I don't prefer cinemode.
    Alot of us use cinemode when we are going to be doing color correction in post. You dont lose detail in cinemode, just saturation levels and such.

    dylan

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    yes, cinemode is for us post people. if you do like the video look just add gamma and an unsharp mask after you've done your grading and effects, this is much much easier than grading an already sharpened video gamma image. no data is lost, quite the contrary. but if you're not doing post work i agree it often looks soft and dull.

    /matt

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    Senior Member b.soysal's Avatar
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    actually I do post-production work and a very important part of my post production work is tracking/keying. and in my humble opinion adding a sharpening filter before the picture gets compressed is far better than adding a sharpening filter after the picture gets compressed. hdv artifacts may ruin your sharpening process.

    as discussed in different forums/topics, cinemode definitely gives softer images and loses some detail. if you check out the comparison below i think you would agree with me:
    http://www.vettaville.com/canon_hv20...e_softness.htm

    the "rainy day clip", which is one of the reasons why i bought this camcorder, was shot on shutter priority mode and most of us loved it. i think cinemode is not necessary to get a cine look. but of course, it's a matter of taste.
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    don't forget that "rainy day" was shot on a rainy day
    which means- nice and soft day light, almost no contrasts, just natural well spread lighting...
    in other words- the ideal day for shooting...
    problems rise when you try to shoot indoors, or with big contrasts between shadows and lights.... TV mode will loose a lot of details in the dark areas.... and you can't fix that...

    apart from that... yea, i definitely prefer camera sharpening than trying all that post work...
    it's better to come up with a good material then to "upgrade in post".

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    Legend Ian-T's Avatar
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    I rememeber this post from last summer. But I also remember another user concluding that it was possible to sharpen Cinemode "In camera" and he gave some test shots to prove it. There of course is more than one way to do it "in cam"....and that's by using the standard sharpening controls or using the "Vivid" preset.

    Personally I think what we are looking at in that photo is some sort of noise reduction going on. i think the difference between TV mode and Cinemode is....in TV mode you should probably turn sharpening down...to get away from the videoy look....and in Cinemode turn sharpening all the way up.
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    Senior Member b.soysal's Avatar
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    rozroz, you are right. but i think one of the elements that made "rainy day clip" fascinating was that sharp image with lots of detail, you could see the raindrops hitting on the ground and splashing, or the leaf flying from the back of shoe when boy is running, etc. In most situations I'd prefer this amount of detail instead of the details in dark areas. watch again that rainy day clip in youtube and the original hd version and you'll understand me better.
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    Ahmetcylan should get the Toggle Award. Very clever.
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    hey. its really kool friend, u rock, U must post some more clever things like this

    Hey dr.dave I agree with you :?)

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    Forum Mogul MAGICOFPYRO's Avatar
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    Default your the man

    wow, does this mean I don't need to get a ND filter to keep my 1/48 going outside in bright sun? I was wondering how I was going to keep the same look when locking exposure inside (easy) and then going outside (is way to bright, and I usually just put it on auto).

    I can't wait for the morning to try this !!!


    thanks (how do people figure this stuff out?)

    oh and by the way I don't have a cell phone so i've been using the lens cap trick, but today I was using my Video Ipod and thought to try it, worked perfect I turned the brightness all the way up on the ipod and had all the 1/48 setting available, so if u dont have a phone but have an ipod your good to go.
    Last edited by MAGICOFPYRO; 2008 March 27th at 04:02.

  15. #15

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    hey magic, i don't see what you mean. if it's too bright it's too bright, regardless of what you can trick your camera into believing. just as removing gain in low light causes the picture to be underexposed tricking it in daylight will make it severly overexposed. the difference is of course that in the first case this is what you want, and if not you can correct it, while in the latter this is exactly what you don't want and there's not way of fixing it in post. no, i think you'll have to hang on to those nd's for a little longer...

    /matt

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    Legend Ian-T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rozroz View Post
    don't forget that "rainy day" was shot on a rainy day
    which means- nice and soft day light, almost no contrasts, just natural well spread lighting...
    in other words- the ideal day for shooting...
    problems rise when you try to shoot indoors, or with big contrasts between shadows and lights.... TV mode will loose a lot of details in the dark areas.... and you can't fix that...

    apart from that... yea, i definitely prefer camera sharpening than trying all that post work...
    it's better to come up with a good material then to "upgrade in post".
    I mentioned this in another post but would it help to use an external low contrast filter...or a Tiffen Ultra contrast filter while in TV mode? Isn't this what Cinemode is sort of doing? Lifting up the blacks and bringing down the whites (racial tone aside of course..lol)? Seems to me we can have the best of both worlds using filters like these.
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    Forum Mogul MAGICOFPYRO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattias View Post
    hey magic, i don't see what you mean. if it's too bright it's too bright, regardless of what you can trick your camera into believing. just as removing gain in low light causes the picture to be underexposed tricking it in daylight will make it severly overexposed. the difference is of course that in the first case this is what you want, and if not you can correct it, while in the latter this is exactly what you don't want and there's not way of fixing it in post. no, i think you'll have to hang on to those nd's for a little longer...

    /matt
    oh, thanks for clearing that up for me mattias, what would you recommend for ND filters, I don't have any but I would like to shoot at 1/48 mode outside, and I was going to build a filter holder on to my DIY mattebox or do they make stackable ones that can screw onto the lens?

    the question the I guess would be why would you want to take the fstop to those levels ? Isn't that the point to allow less light in?

    UPDATE: ok i just tested this outside, it seems to work so explain to me what I'm missing, when I lock exposure at 1.8 1/48 while shooting inside my house I have to make sure everything is lit well, but if I went outside with those same settings the picture gets blown out, so I did this double clicking trick and took it down to f5.6 1/48 and the picture looked really good , am I missing something here? does this make the image quality less than if I kept it at 1.8 1/48 and just used the ND filter? please clarify, thanks (i'm a noob)
    Last edited by MAGICOFPYRO; 2008 March 27th at 15:50.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAGICOFPYRO View Post
    I went outside with those same settings the picture gets blown out, so I did this double clicking trick and took it down to f5.6 1/48 and the picture looked really good
    so what did you get on auto? my point is that you can't trick the camera if there's too much light, and if you can get f/5.6 at 1/48 there's simply not too much light. try it a sunny day and you'll see. assuming the hv20 is the equivalent of around 100-200 iso, you'll have to stop down to at least f/22, which you don't have and probably don't want anyway for dof and diffraction reasons.

    btw do you use your adapter, which i guess could explain why you could shoot at f/5.6 outside? if so you have plenty of room there to adjust so no need for nd's in your case.

    /matt

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    Forum Mogul MAGICOFPYRO's Avatar
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    ahhhh, ok, and yes that test was with my adapter, which I think takes away a lot of light, but if I used it on auto outside my settings won't stay at 1/48 was my issue.

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    it will if you stop down. point taken though. it's actually insane that the camera thinks it's a better idea to increase the shutter speed before it's used all the f-stops, but what do i know...

    /matt

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