Cinema mode - Why would I want to use it?

[toffer007]

It all comes down to this. Control. Control the environment, control the lighting...and most importantly, control the camera. The HV20 is a phenomenal camera and I'm surprised we haven't seen more from indie filmmakers yet doing their feature films this way (I just shot one over the summer - in post right now).

Cinemamode has benefits, but none of the benefits trump locking down exposure and aperture. Cinemamode takes control of things you won't notice until post production and then you could be faced with a reshoot decision. TV48, manual focus, lock exposure and light the scene properly. That's my 2.

[Halsu]

Cinemamode has benefits, but none of the benefits trump locking down exposure and aperture. Cinemamode takes control of things you won't notice until post production and then you could be faced with a reshoot decision. TV48, manual focus, lock exposure and light the scene properly. That's my 2.

Actually, it's known pretty much exactly how Cine handles the exposure: think of it as being locked on TV 1/50 (1/60, 1/48), and then use the +/- to control the aperture.

If there's not enough light, and the camera is already at full aperture, cinemode will modify the shutter up to 1/25 (1/24, 1/30), then start adding gain, but only up to 9dB.

If there's too much light to handle with aperture alone, cinemode will start to modify the shutter speed.

And as always, when in doubt... photo button is your friend.

[toffer007]

If there's not enough light, and the camera is already at full aperture, cinemode will modify the shutter up to 1/25 (1/24, 1/30), then start adding gain, but only up to 9dB.

If there's too much light to handle with aperture alone, cinemode will start to modify the shutter speed.

And as always, when in doubt... photo button is your friend.

I see your point there, but why would you want to leave the gain up to the camera? Of course, I can't argue with the photo button though.

[um3k]

I was uncertain when I saw the the firmware upgrade to change the algorithm for recording DV on the PAL HV30.

Actually, I think the firmware update changed the image scaling algorithm (for HD to SD). For some reason the PAL HV30 originally shipped with an algorithm that resulted in very large amounts of stair stepping and aliasing. It looked so bad, one almost has to wonder if some engineer stuck it in there to get the firmware released to make a hack possible...

I see your point there, but why would you want to leave the gain up to the camera?

You don't leave the gain up to the camera. If you know the sequence of exposure changes, you can easily avoid gain in Cinemode. It's the same sequence, every time. Only the bottom few steps add gain.

[Halsu]

I see your point there, but why would you want to leave the gain up to the camera? Of course, I can't argue with the photo button though.

But you're not leaving gain up to the camera: in cine mode the camera only uses gain if it's the only way to make the image brighter. So, to get rid of gain, you simply use the +/- switch to darken the image enough to have no gain.

...this said, it's much better to have a reasonable amount of gain in-camera, than to try to brighten an underexposed image in post.

[LOGOS PATHOS ETHOS]

for the most part cinemode is good, leaves a lot of room to work with in post, etc.

but I've been getting some nasty noise in some dark areas of my footage in some shots, which were shot with low lighting on purpose, I was also controlling the exposure with the + / - controls but still didn't get TRUE BLACK....

this concerns me a bit, because in some other shots I actually got the most decent black I could , the way I wanted and even had an ND4 filter on the lens with the exposure down to keep the zebras at ease lol

hmmm who or what should I blame now? lol :-P

[rayharryhausen]

I think I can help you with the facts and a link that will show a sample of what cinema mode does.
Firstly cinema mode has nothing to do with 24p or 30p ?
These frame rates are independent and only produce a desired frame rate.
There are 2 main features that I have found with the CINEMA MODE.
1st feature of CINEMA MODE is that it give you that ability of no grain.
Because this feature was meant to recreate a pro film look, it will not produce grain even in low light while in auto exposure. Ideally when a professional does video they will always use Manual exposure (as well as all controls on manual).
If you used AV/TV or any other shooting modes than manual you will get grain if your lighting becomes too dark. The CINEMA MODE does not allow grain to degrade the image in the video but still allows you to shoot in FULL AUTO which is great.
The second feature that CINEMA MODE does is very important to anyone looking for a close to PRO look is DYNAMIC RANGE. This is where the camera gives you something that until now was only available through Film and High-End video cameras. What it does is lightens the areas that are too dark and lowers the overexposed areas and gives you a more even exposure that is closer to a film exposure.
Here is a link to a example of this:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TQpcYiEyqQ"]YouTube- Canon HV30 Test 30p: TV Mode vs. Cine Mode[/nomedia]

I hope this info can help, being in the business, I prefer the look of film over anything else but these new cameras are getting pretty good and are so much fun to use.

[jet]

Well i never used Progressive once now i use it most of the time, but not cine mode its too soft for me and i just cant accept what some some say that although lines of resolution dont show as much in cini mode as TV/P modes its still there, the difference in resolution tests i have done show at least 15 percent loss in cini mode.

[Rainer]

The main problem with cinemode is that it adds the equivalent of a 1.4 pixel gaussian blur. Don't take my word for it, its easy to test for yourself, just shoot some footage identical except for cinemode, blow up the stills and try to replicate the cinemode effect with image editing software: you get most of it by adding blur. This blur causes loss of fine detail which cannot be recovered by sharpening in post. But conversely if you have a few highlights you will also see that you can't recover some of the color in the non-cinemode image: the main advantage of cinemode is that it does give you a slightly higher dynamic range. It's a tradeoff and may just depend on which is more important to you at the time.

[Janke]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say CineMode is not blurred in-camera, it's the other modes that are sharpened.

[Pali]

I never use it. It's like adding reverb to a musical instrument when recording. Once it's on the tape, you can't take it out.

Not only that, you also lose control of the shutter. I know that point has been made. Just adding one more voice of agreement.

[Rainer]

it's the other modes that are sharpened.

Hi Janke, Quite possibly. But there is still the loss of irretrievable detail. The other reason people may give for using cinemode is that the lower contrast gives more scope for color correction in post. That sounds to me like shooting yourself in the foot gives you the advantage of being able to apply a bandaid.

[Janke]

For pros, the ability to do color correction & sharpening in post is of paramount importance.

Amateurs want their stuff all spick & span right out of the camera...

[Rainer]

And so do the pros. But we know we can't have it and will have to do some CC in post. Its still a good idea to minimise this where we can.

[jet]

For pros, the ability to do color correction & sharpening in post is of paramount importance.

Amateurs want their stuff all spick & span right out of the camera...

Yes thats me and today i have been out and used cini mode,the location some national trust gardens with plenty of flowers and lawns hedges etc where the footage can be a tad vivid in TV/P modes,ill be interested in the footage when i see it,the weather glorious sun as its been all april here.

[drapeama]

The only thing i don't like with cinemode on, is that you can't set directly the desired shutter speed. Of course you can tweak it with enough light, using the photo button to check shutter speed and aperture...
But overall, i usually like to shoot using cinemode especially because it gives more flexibility in post.

[jet]

Yes thats me and today i have been out and used cini mode,the location some national trust gardens with plenty of flowers and lawns hedges etc where the footage can be a tad vivid in TV/P modes,ill be interested in the footage when i see it,the weather glorious sun as its been all april here.

After capturing watching on my hd monitor as it captured i can see why for this type of film location there are some advantages in the mode.

[Bif]

Well i never used Progressive once now i use it most of the time, but not cine mode its too soft for me and i just cant accept what some some say that although lines of resolution dont show as much in cini mode as TV/P modes its still there, the difference in resolution tests i have done show at least 15 percent loss in cini mode.

There are some things that can be done about that softness, and in camera, too. I love the expanded dynamic range of Cine mode with it's muted contrast, muted colors, and reduced brightness...But it is a tad "flat" for me. I found in post I was frequently adding a "touch" of contrast, and a bit of brightness, not so much as to get even close to the video look but enough to give it a bit of life.

Then I tried the custom presets in one of the menus. I forget exactly where that is on the HV series but I still use it on the HF100s. For each parameter there are 3 settings, the default middle, a "-", and a "+". So I move the index up to the "+" on Contrast, Brightness, and Sharpness. Doing that adds enough "snap" to the image without getting back to the harsh, crisp video look, nor does it impact much on the dynamic range.

This seems to hold up very well on SD DVDs and on HD WMV files viewed with a media player on my 42" HD TV.

I use Cine mode almost exclusively outdoors with those settings but indoors with added light I go back to the defaults and use either TV mode or Spotlight mode (I generally light a bit soft anyway).

I hope there's something here you can use, Jet.

[Janke]

Bif, that's exactly what I do, too.

[jet]

There are some things that can be done about that softness, and in camera, too. I love the expanded dynamic range of Cine mode with it's muted contrast, muted colors, and reduced brightness...But it is a tad "flat" for me. I found in post I was frequently adding a "touch" of contrast, and a bit of brightness, not so much as to get even close to the video look but enough to give it a bit of life.

Then I tried the custom presets in one of the menus. I forget exactly where that is on the HV series but I still use it on the HF100s. For each parameter there are 3 settings, the default middle, a "-", and a "+". So I move the index up to the "+" on Contrast, Brightness, and Sharpness. Doing that adds enough "snap" to the image without getting back to the harsh, crisp video look, nor does it impact much on the dynamic range.

This seems to hold up very well on SD DVDs and on HD WMV files viewed with a media player on my 42" HD TV.

I use Cine mode almost exclusively outdoors with those settings but indoors with added light I go back to the defaults and use either TV mode or Spotlight mode (I generally light a bit soft anyway).

I hope there's something here you can use, Jet.

Cheers Bif, when i had a FX7 doing in cam adjustments were easy a bit more fiddly on HVs but i will give the settings you suggest a go a go

Ps dont you make menued BLU RAYS they are my passion.

[jet]

After trying the contrast/brightness and sharness at + settings they dont seem to have any more effect than the colour setting on my cam so it will only have to be natural filming of country[plenty of grass] and colourful things on sunny days that cini mode will be for me.

[LOGOS PATHOS ETHOS]

I love this thread ! :-)


I came back to it so many times, after trying one mode after the other and the good thing is that, basically, there ain't no perfect mode for all kinds of situation

the custom settings in (+) are a good help when you need to give the image that desired punch before post. But it's not a good idea to use that when the light is not enough, you'll have tons of noise. In those situations, cinemode is a good idea, of course tv mode as well, considering that the shutter and exposure are kept under control


so, all goes back to : Mr. Shutter and Mrs. Exposure :-P

it should be a good marriage ;-)

[OlafIronfoot]

Then I tried the custom presets in one of the menus. I forget exactly where that is on the HV series but I still use it on the HF100s. For each parameter there are 3 settings, the default middle, a "-", and a "+". So I move the index up to the "+" on Contrast, Brightness, and Sharpness. Doing that adds enough "snap" to the image without getting back to the harsh, crisp video look, nor does it impact much on the dynamic range.

Forgive me for sounding silly, and asking, but Where's that default, + and -? and how do we adjust it? is it on the camera? or in post?
Thanks for enlightening a young padawaann! haha

[cgbier]

In the camera.
Most important mantra in electronics: Read the manual!

[Janke]

Read the manual!

Don't forget to remove the book from the plastic bag before you try to open it...