Yet another thread about motor noise

[ag2]

Hi all,

I got my HV20 a few days ago. I am now deciding whether the motor noise I hear is normal or whether I should try to exchange the camera.

I've read every single thread on this site about the noise, and I am still confused. In a poll about motor noise, 15% of people said they hear no motor noise, and 50% said the noise is very slight and almost unnoticeable.

How can this be? In my footage, when shooting in a quiet room, the noise is very pronounced. I can hear the motor whine if I hold the camera an arm-length away. I could probably still hear the whine if I put the camera 10 feet away (in a quiet room).

My camera sounds much like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zplfrMZxbA

Here is how the same footage sounds with an external mic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCu_XnhdZjc

Are the 15% of people who say they don't notice any noise deaf? Or does noise really vary by camera and some HV20's are much quieter?

I wonder if there is an objective way to compare noise across camera, perhaps by using the audio level display. In auto mode without mic attenuation, I see two solid (non-blinking) ticks of audio in a quiet room. If I boost mic level to maximum, I see 5-6 solid ticks. What are other people seeing?

[ag2]

Anyone?

[nolonemo]

I can hear my camera an arms length away, I suspect that some people are more sensitive to the presence of motor noise than others, but I don't know.

[Jayne Cobb]

I don't believe that's too unusual. Couldn't say if all HV20's are like that, but I can tell you that mine's pretty close. Auto-mode in a dead silent room the first bar is on and the second flickers (not quite constantly on, but close). Zooming fast picks up big time, etc. Such is the nature of not-so- great condenser mics.

For me, the video on the HV20 is excellent, the audio not so much. There's a lot to be desired audio wise. What Canon should have done is make the attenuator variable and have an EQ adjustment. The stock mic has too much highend on it IMO. I picked up a cheap $50 external shotgun mic that improves the situation a bit.

Being a musician (w/ my own studio) I have plenty of gear to fiddle with the audio in post production to remove most of the tape noise and the like. So it's not too big of a deal to me, though it is somewhat disappointing that it's even necessary.

I definitely plan on picking up a RØDE VideoMic as it seems to be the only easy way to get the sound quality up there with the video quality.

[ag2]

Thanks!

Are you seeing one solid bar when recording to tape or just with the camera on? Also, are you counting the bar directly under "40"? May I ask you how many bars you see with mic level set to maximum?

[2Bdecided]

That's a good test ag2 - rather than saying "it sounds good or bad in my opinion", we can use the HV20's own meters to judge the noise (assuming they're consistent).

Unfortunately, the noise on my HV20 isn't consistent - some days it sounds different from others.

I will try your experiment when I get the chance: silent room, manual recording level, full, no attenuator, count the bars. Try in rec-pause and recording.

Cheers,
David.

[rgtaa]

The HV20 is semi-pro Video and consumer sound!


I have zoom h2, and lap mic and I'm getting a rodes VM ... so I can have more semi-PRO sound, if I need it.

Camcorder.com didn't seem to be too bothered by it because they probably compare it to all the others and the sound is about the same, and the HV20 does have EXTERNAL mic plug so YOU CAN USE external mic. I guess we should be "grateful" we can plug in external mic, since some camcorders don't have that and are stuck with internal mic.

[Jayne Cobb]

While the mic ain't exactly to my liking, and the inner working are definitely noticeably louder than any of my other previous miniDV cameras, I think it's the audio design itself that's the problem.

An overly sentsitive mic with too much highend and white noise pick up trapped in a plastic box with all sorts of noisy mechanical workings taking place. I'm not too sure why they have the mics pointing up in the first place either (the JVC GZ-HDs have the sam thing going on). Seems to me it would capture what you're shooting better if the mics were facing forward with the lens like they use to design 'em.

If someone were dead set on using the stock mic, but wanted to cut back on the extra noise, they could probably gut the thing and put it back together with some good sound foam protecting the mic from the inside of the HV20. Of course, that's a whole lot of work (which no doubt voids the warranty) when you can just pick up an external mic to rectify the problem.

For the comparison I'll try to run the test later tonight and post the findings if I still have my sanity then, too busy working with click tracks right now.

[2Bdecided]

My results:

Paused: 3-6, averaging 5
Record: 4-6, averaging 5
No tape: 3-5, averaging 5!

So much of what appears on the meter isn't the tape noise, but the really high frequency noise that it's harder to hear on playback (younger ears will disagree) - or maybe my room wasn't as quiet as I though?


I've heard my HV20 be much noisier. It was having a "normal" moment last night, whereas occasionally it has a slightly more metallic sound added.

Cheers,
David.

[dWyZaK]

You guys could always try 'Noise Reduction' Utube tutorial if it's that annoying.

But good mics are as expensive as the Cameras so you shouldn't set your sights too high, and a simple Rhodes addition is really a must.

[2Bdecided]

I know how to do NR. The point is that there were consumer cameras a decade or more ago that didn't need it. Sound-wise, the HV20 is a huge step back. I think the question some of us had is whether some HV20s are worse than others, or whether it's just that some users are more sensitive/picky than others.

Cheers,
David.

[rgtaa]

Yeah, that is the question , if some HV20's are worst then others with motor noise.
Mine isn't bad at all, but, like you suggested, some people could be fixated on it ( like a new car with the first dent or scratch on it) or their ears are "more sensitive" ... or ... their camcorder is "louder" compared to others.
Anyone have 3 or 4 hv20's laying around and can do a comparison?
I did have access to 2 of them and they sounded the same to my ears.
I did experience a few days ago, where for a second or 2 , I could hear what sounded like "motor noise" ... I was moving the camcorder fast and zooming and for a few seconds I heard a camcorder noise.... and if that is what people are hearing all the time, yeah , it was loud, but it only happened maybe once or 2 times since I have had it 2 months now.
p.s.
my videos are here:

http://www.vimeo.com/user308819/videos

using internal mic on auto, you tell me, do you hear motor noise?
In most of my videos there is a water fountain in middle of lake, so you can hear water in the background, and cars/trucks are near-by from road. The Batman Head shot video shows the water fountain in middle of lake.

[ag2]

My results:

Paused: 3-6, averaging 5
Record: 4-6, averaging 5
No tape: 3-5, averaging 5!

So much of what appears on the meter isn't the tape noise, but the really high frequency noise that it's harder to hear on playback (younger ears will disagree) - or maybe my room wasn't as quiet as I though?


I've heard my HV20 be much noisier. It was having a "normal" moment last night, whereas occasionally it has a slightly more metallic sound added.

Cheers,
David.

That's loud! I have to boost my mic all the way to max to see 5-6 bars in a quiet room. And I thought my camera was loud.

Edit: I saw your previous post and realized you were testing at max level already. In that case, 5-6 bars is roughly what i see too.
It is strange that the noise level is the same with or without tape.

[Jayne Cobb]

On Auto mode I have 2-3 bars on constantly, flickering up to 4-5 while recording in a dead sound room. The 1 bar reading was on my manual setting (w/ the Attenuator on).

I know I'm fixated on the sound, since it's what I do. When you're use to 24/96 and thousand dollar mics it spoils you, though. If the sound is bad, it drives me nuts. I don't expect a stock mic in a camcorder to be as good as a highend recording studio condenser mic. However, I did expect it to be better than any camera I had 6 years ago. The sound is noticeably worse than other miniDV's I've had (Sony's mostly).

Of course, if you're looking to really do something other than family videos with the camera you'll probably want an external mic anyway, so it's not too big of a deal. It just would be nice if the stock sound were more adequate. Thank goodness you can attach external mics.

I'll interested to see how the RØDE Stereo VideoMic pairs with it.

[bitty]

Keep in mind the record/playback head on MiniDV spins at ~9000rpm so theres bound to be some noise generation when the mic is only a few cm's away.

I own both the Rode SVM and Rode Videomic and found they work well but can still pickup some of the motor noise unless you have some noise dampening material in between them (if the mic is mounted on the cameras accessory shoe). 4mm dense foam from a craft store works very well.

For premium audio quality I recommend something like the Zoom H2 which allows 4 channel recording. This records in raw format with no lossless compression such as HDV employs and by not being tethered to the camera gves you more flexibility. You could also use a Rode mic connected to the camera to capture one/two (Videomic/svm) channels in addition to the H2 for additional functionality.

You then just sync your video and audio in your favorite video editor and get to use a clapper board like the pro's

Professional HD JVC 63min tapes do reduce the motor noise (in my experience)

As you all know a fresh tape will generally slightly stick to the spool as its been tightly wound and probably in storage for a little while.

With an external rewinder (to reduce wear and tear on your hv20) take a fresh tape, forward it to the end, then completely rewind. This will mean your tape won't be so tightly compressed, hence a reduction in the pressure against the head as the tape is transported from one spool to the other.....

Try a different tape and see if the level of noise changes but avoid mixing tape brands (dry/wet lubricant issue comes to mind)

[rgtaa]

WOW!
Bitty! ... you could have just said something their, I have ONLY used Professional HD JVC 63min tapes ... and that could be the reason I don't hear motor noise. I did buy some pana tapes but haven't used them yet.
Thanks for the heads up.

[2Bdecided]

Can anyone else do the simple experiment suggested by ag2: put the manual recording level to maximum, attenuator off, and count the bars on the recording level meter?

Anything else is just subjective.

Cheers,
David.

[elantric]

I have two refurbished HV20's - Both record better audio than my old Sony TRV-900.

The HV30 mic AGC (Automatic Gain Control) circuit will allow the Tape noise to occur on your recordings when nothing else in your environment is making sound.

If you want to minimize tape motor noise and have cleaner audio in post production- use the HV30 Manual Mic Audio Level mode - and adjust it for your peak audio mic levels (watch the VU) - do not let it clip / distort. This way you preserve the dynamic range and signal to noise ratio - and the HV30 mic gain will remain low in between dialogue - and not do the typical cheap camcorder AGC noise pumping, with rising noise floor after you slam a door, etc. If you leave the mic level on Auto - of course the AGC circuit will do its job, and pickup the Tape Motor noise when there is no other dialogue or sound.

[Eclipse]

Did anyone take a look into my thread where I´ve described a way to reduce motor hiss?

This thread is here:
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=14544

I´m wondering that nobody responded to this thread, since the motor noise problem is so widespread. Did I post the thread in the wrong section? (DIY/modifications section)

Anyway, I´d like to see comments and responses.

[huggster]

Did anyone take a look into my thread where I´ve described a way to reduce motor hiss?

This thread is here:
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=14544

I´m wondering that nobody responded to this thread, since the motor noise problem is so widespread. Did I post the thread in the wrong section? (DIY/modifications section)

Anyway, I´d like to see comments and responses.

I will try that tonight with foam. However i might just mount the cam on its own tripid with 3m extension and be done with it.

[huggster]

Hi all,

I got my HV20 a few days ago. I am now deciding whether the motor noise I hear is normal or whether I should try to exchange the camera.

I've read every single thread on this site about the noise, and I am still confused. In a poll about motor noise, 15% of people said they hear no motor noise, and 50% said the noise is very slight and almost unnoticeable.

How can this be? In my footage, when shooting in a quiet room, the noise is very pronounced. I can hear the motor whine if I hold the camera an arm-length away. I could probably still hear the whine if I put the camera 10 feet away (in a quiet room).

I think its normal, at least i hope so as I can't be chored to return mine. But yes, it is very pronounced, even with a rode videomic mounted in the shoe.

Bear in mind some people have blasted their eardrums from concerts so hearning may not be as good, or cannot pick up that whine.

[huggster]

WOW!
Bitty! ... you could have just said something their, I have ONLY used Professional HD JVC 63min tapes ... and that could be the reason I don't hear motor noise. I did buy some pana tapes but haven't used them yet.
Thanks for the heads up.

I just changed from a Panasonic DVM60 to a Panasonic Ay-DVM63PQ and is has removed the "whine" noise I would get every 20 seconds or so randomly. I still get motor noise but that is less as well.
this has not been tested so it could be fluke.

[Dr. Benway]

Best to keep the microphone as far away as possible from the tape drive. When interviewing set up your mic as close to source as possible and run a lead back to the HV. Run n' gun with an on camera mic; diy time, try to use a bracket to get the mic 'off camera' and consider constructing a plastic shield (half circle old plastic tube/bottle cut up) lined with velvet that you can mount between your mic and the HV. The HV whine and tape drive noise is hideous, bring on solid state.