RED ONE, and digital cinema, and all those kinds of things...

[Mal]

ARGGHH!!! I think I'll buy me a Red...

Honestly, I doubt any RED ONE cam for the next year will give trouble free operation either.
Have you seen what connections they used for the audio for instance? Yes, MINI-XLR! They suck eggs.
If you think they won't have connection problems with heavy use, you are mistaken, IMHO. I think they will fail left and right; because no time was spent on having this thoroughly tested.
Heck they only just enabled audio, so they have NO TRACK record of its sturdiness at all.

I foretell that to be the cam's weakest point; connections failing, and problems due to heat and shock. It will produce amazing images, but will need to be handled with kid gloves.

Well, I've been predicting my RED arrival by about April 2008 (I'm under #1000) since late 2006, when they said it was a few months away. Looks like I was pretty much right. And I still think they'll continue to have problems.

In the end, by the time they have a solid camera, the others will [almost] have caught up with the image quality, just doing so with less fan-boys and less gloating!

[Erik Bien]

In the end, by the time they have a solid camera, the others will [almost] have caught up with the image quality, just doing so with less fan-boys and less gloating!

I think there will be a lot of pissed-off VariCam and CineAlta owners if the 'other guys' come even close to matching RED's pricing, though!

[Mats]

A cam probably able to achieve better quality than a F900 (with appropriate lenses) is the RED ONE though, at $17500 sans lens:
http://red.com

Isn't 17500 a bargain in that respect, given the f355 costs 25' sans(?) lens and I guess the f900 is better (at 50'-100' or so)?

[Erik Bien]

Isn't 17500 a bargain in that respect?

Yes (which probably explains why there are a few RED reservation holders among our ranks here).

[Mats]

>there are a few RED reservation holders among our ranks here

This is quite interesting, users that span from 700 to 17500. Never experienced that - it's like some-one having a Skoda would start looking at Bentley, or some-one with the money for a Bentley would, while waiting for their new model, get a Skoda to drive around in.

[Mats]

I think there will be a lot of pissed-off VariCam and CineAlta owners if the 'other guys' come even close to matching RED's pricing, though!

Interesting thoughts - however I think this will not happen. There are many that wants to pay for the brand - and perhaps better service organization. Are the "premium" branded cars better - h*ll no, but still they sell, at silly prices. E.g. look at the Porsche Cayenne and the Volksvagen Touareg - 95% same car - priced diff. and the Cayenne sell very well, fantastically well in fact, especially in the USA. At those prices like 50'-100' they don't care if it costs that since just holding the crew idle due to any malfunction will cost a lot more.

[Erik Bien]

I don't think it will happen either, but I don't think brand elitism is what will allow Sony et al to keep their prices high. If your business involves any sort of live broadcast production, RED isn't your camera: it can't put out anything more than 720p live.

The companies I think are in for a tough time post-RED are those for whom 'digital cinema' cameras are their primary business (Silicon Imaging, Dalsa, etc.)

[Mats]

One thing is certain and that is that progress and development will serve any sub-10' budget well. Today the EX1 could be seen as a very good camera, but perhaps over most budgets (like mine...) but in some years time that will be a common 1500 USD-unit technology. I can wait and perhaps get "RED image quality" in a Sony/Canon/Panny/JVC/... in 2011 or so, or earlier. My A1 which do very well today will naturally be hopelessly outdated in some years time. I just have to upgrade before

>The companies I think are in for a tough time post-RED are those for whom 'digital cinema' cameras are their primary business (Silicon Imaging, Dalsa, etc.)

Yes, any business that don't have the power of Canon, Sony etc. will find it difficult when the giants put their state-of-the-art into prosumer (consumer?) models.

[RockyRoad2929]

The reason I have both…well, the RED ONE won't be delivered until 2008...since I saw a lot of videos with this camera using 35mm adaptor, and lenses. I was quite impressed with the images. I know a few REDHeads that have both...sure, you can't compare them against each other…but the fact is that this little cam is pretty unique for the price point and to achieve 1080/24p. I know its 1440/24p but if you use Intensity card, you can achieve 1080/24p. Well, it may be daunting to get those 1080/24p frames in your NLE but it is possible from reading other users here using various free third parties software to get 24p from this camera. It seems that FCP 6.0 is the best so far, for easy capture of the 24p material.

I figure why spent $5 to 10 grand on a pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1. Buy this camera, learn everything about it, use 35mm lenses, buy mattebox, follow focus, Hd Monitor, etc....shoot as much as possible. Learn from this camera...then if you believe you need that pro camera. Then make the step. But I believe for a lot less than the pro camera price and you will have much better control of those features using my recommend unit above. Also, remember those pro camera don't have the control you'll have with matte, and ff. So, that's very important. Hey, I'm not knocking those cameras down, I just see it why invest money into a old CCD chip like the H1 X1 that still is 2 years old and that price is way too expensive for the times. The Sony V1 is fine, but for $5,000 grand, I can buy this camera, rigged it up to a tee and I’ll be shooting like a pro.

Remember it’s not the camera that makes the film; it’s the person who's behind it.

That's my two cents.

Cheers...!!!

Happy New Year.

[Mats]

> I figure why spent $5 to 10 grand on a pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1. Buy this camera, learn everything about it, use 35mm lenses, buy mattebox, follow focus, Hd Monitor, etc....shoot as much as possible.

That rig must cost a bit? 17' for the body, some 4+ for lense etc. Would not a "pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1" be a good unit then?

> Learn from this camera...then if you believe you need that pro camera. Then make the step.

You mean to a F900? or "pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1"?

> But I believe for a lot less than the pro camera price

I don't understand - is not the RED more expensive than the pro models you list? I could have missed some information.

Bottom line I think that the prosumer, the ENG-units and the RED have different customers. It's good to have choises.

> The Sony V1 is fine, but for $5,000 grand, I can buy this camera, rigged it up to a tee and I’ll be shooting like a pro.

I must be complete wrong or, on the RED.com page the body cost 17.5'.

Isn't 'grand' a 'word' for 1000 USD - but I don't think you mean 5 MUSD ("$5,000 grand")

[Ian-T]

Thanks Rocky.

Question: Anyone know if the Red has the ability to turn off its shutter?

I ask because I read recently that the new Sony EX-1 (Single CMOS like the HV20 and Red) displays some of the same "rolling shutter" artifacts that we have all been seeing (maybe not to the same degree). But...because the EX-1 has the ability to turn off its shutter...those artifacts disappear (particularly the flash from strobe lights etc.)

[RockyRoad2929]

Hi Mats,

Sorry, maybe you were confused by my post.

I figure why spent $5 to 10 grand on a pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1. Buy this camera, learn everything about it, use 35mm lenses, buy mattebox, follow focus, Hd Monitor, etc....shoot as much as possible.

That rig must cost a bit? 17' for the body, some 4+ for lense etc. Would not a "pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1" be a good unit then?

No, I mean the X1 H1 or the Sony V1 camera. Buy the HV20, then rig it to a tee with 35mm adaptor, use 35mm lenses, buy mattebox, follow focus, Hd Monitor, etc. Not the RED One, no, the RED ONE is 17,500 for only the body, all the other stuff is extra like lenses, matte, ff, monitor, etc.

> Learn from this camera...then if you believe you need that pro camera. Then make the step.

You mean to a F900? or "pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1"?

No, the HV20 camera with all the items attached...matte, ff, etc.

> But I believe for a lot less than the pro camera price.

I'm mean with the HV20 & extra attach items.

I don't understand - is not the RED more expensive than the pro models you list? I could have missed some information.

I was comparing the X1 H1 or the Sony V1 camera not the RED. The RED ONE is completely different price and quality issue. The RED ONE is like shooting in 35mm and beyond like 4k images. Quite amazing.

Bottom line I think that the prosumer, the ENG-units and the RED have different customers. It's good to have choises.

Yes, I agree totoally with you. RED is going to shake up the sleeping giant of 35mm and companies like Sony, Pana, Panavision, ARRI.

> The Sony V1 is fine, but for $5,000 grand, I can buy this camera, rigged it up to a tee and I’ll be shooting like a pro.

I mean again, the HV20 cam not the RED.

I must be complete wrong or, on the RED.com page the body cost 17.5'.

Yes, plus all those goodies to atach to it. Not expensive as the F900 or the new Sony F23 cam. You still have to buy all those goodies for that cam too.

Isn't 'grand' a 'word' for 1000 USD - but I don't think you mean 5 MUSD ("$5,000 grand")

Yes, I mean $5,000 dollars.

Cheers...!!!

[Mats]

Now I got it. Yep, the HV20 is a good 'starter'.

Never seen any footage from the RED but 4k must be impressive. Isn't that close to "film" (even though film isn't measured in pixel-resolution)?

I think the F355 is cool, but priced way way above me. Some day perhaps... or we will find the exact stuff in HV90 in 2015 for 1500 USD...

[Mal]

Question: Anyone know if the Red has the ability to turn off its shutter?

It is said that the RED has a VERY fast scanning and that rolling shutter is much less than say a EX1 or a HV20.
The flash thing will probably still rmeain though...not sure.

I really would like to bring these RED posts of a few threads into its own thread were we could discuss RED to our hearts content.

Any thoughts?

[Mats]

Yep, why not a RED thread

[Ian-T]

It is said that the RED has a VERY fast scanning and that rolling shutter is much less than say a EX1 or a HV20.
The flash thing will probably still rmeain though...not sure.

I really would like to bring these RED posts of a few threads into its own thread were we could discuss RED to our hearts content.

Any thoughts?

Yes that would be good. I'm sure there are lots of questions in regards to this cam (I know I have a few).

[Mal]

Herewith our very own RED ONE thread.

Hopefully this can be an open discussion about the RED ONE cam; pros, cons, whatever.

Note: Since I will merge some posts from other threads over to this thread, and those posts will be sorted by date, this post will probably not end up being the first one.

[youngfilmmaker]

F900 is a HDCam, which means it's 1440*1080 too. It's not uncompressed, it uses 170 mbit/s compression and 3:1:1 color sampling. So, the format is better than HDV, but not THAT much. In most shots, there's no real visual difference between HDV and HDCam as far as formats go.

F900 has 2/3" sensor, which is bigger than HV20's 1/3" sensor, but it's not really THAT big a difference.

In good shooting conditions, the two cameras will probably produce quite similar footage.

What one pays for in cameras like F900 is controllability, robustness, choice of lenses, and better technical quality overall.

F900 is of course much more expensive to make than HV20, but i think the main difference in prices boils down to the market segment and number of units sold, rather than manufacturing costs.

If Sony sold as many F900's as Canon sells HV20's, it wouldn't cost 100K bucks. It would be something much, much less. F900 is sold to a small professional market, and they need to keep the price up to get back their research and development investmens.

SO you're saying with the right setting and equipments used, the HV20 is capable of producing the same image as the F900? Will they both look similar (in terms of picture quality) when shown on the big screen? Also, is the RED camera really worth the 25 grand (including accessories)? Does it really rival or even surpass the image equality of 35mm film on the big screen?

[youngfilmmaker]

any other thoughts?

[Camera_man_carl]

The reason I have both…well, the RED ONE won't be delivered until 2008...since I saw a lot of videos with this camera using 35mm adaptor, and lenses. I was quite impressed with the images. I know a few REDHeads that have both...sure, you can't compare them against each other…but the fact is that this little cam is pretty unique for the price point and to achieve 1080/24p. I know its 1440/24p but if you use Intensity card, you can achieve 1080/24p. Well, it may be daunting to get those 1080/24p frames in your NLE but it is possible from reading other users here using various free third parties software to get 24p from this camera. It seems that FCP 6.0 is the best so far, for easy capture of the 24p material.

I figure why spent $5 to 10 grand on a pro camera like H1 X1 or Sony V1. Buy this camera, learn everything about it, use 35mm lenses, buy mattebox, follow focus, Hd Monitor, etc....shoot as much as possible. Learn from this camera...then if you believe you need that pro camera. Then make the step. But I believe for a lot less than the pro camera price and you will have much better control of those features using my recommend unit above. Also, remember those pro camera don't have the control you'll have with matte, and ff. So, that's very important. Hey, I'm not knocking those cameras down, I just see it why invest money into a old CCD chip like the H1 X1 that still is 2 years old and that price is way too expensive for the times. The Sony V1 is fine, but for $5,000 grand, I can buy this camera, rigged it up to a tee and I’ll be shooting like a pro.

Remember it’s not the camera that makes the film; it’s the person who's behind it.

That's my two cents.

Cheers...!!!

Happy New Year.

I hope to get a Red in early 2009...if my freelance gigs keepup...

[Camera_man_carl]

SO you're saying with the right setting and equipments used, the HV20 is capable of producing the same image as the F900? Will they both look similar (in terms of picture quality) when shown on the big screen? Also, is the RED camera really worth the 25 grand (including accessories)? Does it really rival or even surpass the image equality of 35mm film on the big screen?

Check out this footage shot by Directed Peter Jackson called CROSSING THE LINE ... shot on a Redone Cam
http://red.cachefly.net/video/crossing1.mov
Another Movie trailer for a film shot with a RedOne: Staring James McAvoy, Morgan Freeman and Angelina Jolie. Coming 2008
http://www.wantedmovie.com/

[Halsu]

Never seen any footage from the RED but 4k must be impressive. Isn't that close to "film" (even though film isn't measured in pixel-resolution)?

Based on the footage i have seen, 4K is as sharp or sharper than 35mm film negative, and HDV etc. are pretty close to 16mm negative sharpness wise.

But the film prints people see on theaters are of much lower resolution, said to be equal to around 1K digital images.

If perceived image sharpness was the only consideration, i.e. HV20 footage, digitally projected, would probably be better than the average 35mm print people see in theaters.

I have seen footage shot with Dalsa origin, a 4K camera similar to red, digitally projected at 4K and 2k resolutions. At the regular theater screen size and viewing distance, there was no big difference in apparent sharpness. Both looked more or less perfect.***

The difference was visible in really small sharp details - in 2K projection, there was some very, very minor "crawling" due to moving, roughly single pixel sized details. Didn't spot this on the 4K footage. The 2K copy could probably have been filtered during resizing to prevent these crawlies, but with some visible loss of sharpness.


*** 4K has roughly five times as many pixels as HDV, and 2K has about 1.25 times as many. 1K has less pixels than 1080 HDV, it should be pretty close to 720p.

*** The regular theater screen doesn't fill much more of the spectators field of view than a regular computer screen, when both are seen from the usual distance. So, what looks sharp on a computer screen should look equally as sharp in theater.

[RockyRoad2929]

Happy New year,

I was merely stating that RED ONE is quite different in its amazing images and the price point, recording in 4k onto a compact flash card. Now, that's cool. Sure, they are having problems delievering cameras in the last couple months...but you have to give them so much credit for a new company just barely two 1/2 years now...not to shabby for a company that REALLY is going to stir the pot and they have so far to make this a reality.

Check out the RED site and their forum to understand why thesse REDHeads love this camera. Sure, they're procasnaders out there...but just check it out and see for yourself. They have a footage page to view the footage shot by Peter Jackson - for last year's NAB "Crossing the Line". Enjoy!!!

I'm not much in a hurry like some of these REDHeads...demanding or complaining when or why is it taking so long. Jim has (the owner) been so open about his and his teams problems and triuphs sometimes that's the way some things work out and some things don't. Very open and honest owner...you don't see that at Sony or Pana discusssion on their problems why their camera isn't out.

Anywho, its quite unique camera much like our faithful HV20...

Cheers.

[Mal]

...i.e. HV20 footage, digitally projected, would probably be better than the average 35mm print people see in theaters.

AMEN TO THAT! Our local theatre's print and projection quality is more like SD from a Saticon tube cam of the 80s!

[Ian-T]

AMEN TO THAT! Our local theatre's print and projection quality is more like SD from a Saticon tube cam of the 80s!

I gotta believe this statement. I went to see "The Golden Compass" the other day expecting to see percfect imagry and pristine visual effects...but I swear...there was so much nasty grain and dirt-like specs all over the place...for the second time in my life I considered walking out of the theater.....but the story eventually caught my attention. Really...this was not the first blockbuster movie in the last year that I have seen like this.

Resolution (IMHO) is no longer an issue today with these new prosumer and consumer cams. Personally I think cams like Red have the potential to look even better than film on the big screen.