How long?

[azmyth]

Let me know if my frustration is unwarranted..

we had 3 small "Scenes" to shoot last night..

1. was a very short dialog sequence with me and another actress. We had maybe 4 lines.
We got medium shots, closeups, a wide angle, and a tracking shot..

we didn't shoot the first frame of that til almost 10pm.
We'd been on set since 2.. spent the day doing set design, makeup.. and then LIGHTING.. took almost 4 hrs for ONE angle.

2. was supposed to be another short dialog scene between me and her.. it was a bit longer, but still pretty simple.. we didn't get to it.

3. was a scene with my main actress who had already been waiting for like 4 hours doing nothing. She was asleep. We had to do a shot of her lying in bed with a necklace rising from her neck by itself, and a nightmare shot.. and a shot of her looking in the mirror and seeing something scary in it. All in the same room.

Again, lighting took forever.

4. Was supposed to be a scene of her in the dining room opening a bottle of water, and taking some meds.

5. was her walking from her room down a stair case..

we didn't get to any of that.

We wrapped at 6:30 am..

I send the first actress home at 4am after keeping her there waiting for 2 hrs doing nothing trying to see if we were going to get to her stuff.

My main actress sat around for almost 6 hrs of the shoot. She still got paid for a full day.

Was my schedule too ambitious? or do I need to address this lighting issue. My entire crew came to me at some point asking why it was taking so long with lighting. At one point we came on set for rehearsal to get prepared to shoot, and we sat there for a solid hour while they messed with ONE light.

Where do you draw the line?

[Almohada]

I guess they didn't know what they were doing. This is why I have to do everything myself. Some people I've worked with aren't motivated enough to work QUICK. There are people waiting and a lot of money being thrown away -- fast. So, if they take long I'd just jump in and say hey... this is how you do it... boom, done. Let's shoot.

[Dr. Benway]

Some people I've worked with aren't motivated enough to work QUICK.

Some are incapable of it. It's like they are truly retarded. Fascinating.

[azmyth]

The thing is.. he's the person with the MOST experience...

He graduated from SCAD, has shot numerous shorts, and worked in TV...

But, its like he has no sense of time or urgency. Its ok to waste 4 hrs on ONE light, but not to get a "tracking shot" or "jib" shot.

I just wanted to make sure my sentiments were not unfounded before figuring out a way to handle it.

I asked him if he'd be cool with me giving it a "go" on my own for one shoot to put myself in his situation to see if he's "right" about how long it takes.

[Jim E]

I asked him if he'd be cool with me giving it a "go" on my own for one shoot to put myself in his situation to see if he's "right" about how long it takes.

Azmyth, going by the many threads you've started about the problems you often seem to have with crew, I have to say that I really think you're FAR too accomodating!

You sound like a very tolerant and amiable person who's unwilling to upset anyone. Instead, you let them upset you!

And then afterwards you agonise over whether or not you've been the one in the wrong! Hence these threads.

I don't know, Azmyth, I think you should take hold of the reins a bit tighter in your film-making. Maybe it's not in your nature to do that, but maybe you could train yourself to act the part, you know what I mean? Be a monster on the set, but a pussycat off it.

Just my 2 cents.

[azmyth]

I want to be that, but again I'm a nice guy. I don't want low morale on set. But, I feared this would be an issue going in. He didn't even want to be involved until he heard I was hiring professional actors this go round.

He's not getting paid, and thats part of it.. I can't really lay down the law on people who are working for nothing.. but again.. I'm doing HIM the favor, I'll shoot the film with or without him. He has more "experience" than me, but lacks the ability to put together something this massive. I'm the only person around here who has. I spend all my time organizing, and planning etc.

I talked to him earlier, and I guess I hurt his feelings. He felt like I was listening to my "unexperienced" crew over him. To me, we are a team.. regardless of skill level.. we are only working properly if we are all in cohesion. If one of us is not.. then it hurts the whole team.

The entire crew came to me last night about the massive amounts of set up time we were having to wait on. Experienced or not, I can't sit and just let that go and tell them to deal with it. I myself thought it was taking too long.. I wasn't 100% in agreeance with them.. but when I see people horse playing, or making it seem like "OTHER" people are the ones making it take so long, when its really them... that doesn't sit too well with me.

[Bif]

Azmyth:

Almohada nailed it.

You're in charge. You "own" the project. In your place I would try on the next shoot to step in and correct whatever is taking him so much time. If the lighting changes he is trying are making little or no overall difference and you can see the way you want it, then do what Almodada does.

Move in, place the light where it does what you feel you want it to do, and say "That's the way I want it". Step back to the camera (or director's position), call for actors to be ready for "scene X, take X", call "camera, sound, and....ACTION".

If he can't take it, for the sake of your crew's morale he needs to be gone.

I think the rest of your crew will jump in and perform.

Bruce Foreman

[Jim E]

He sounds like something of a prima donna to me. People like that seem to have a radar for people they can intimidate.

Looks like it's a question of finding the middle ground. If it were me, I'd call a meeting of the whole crew before I took one more step. It would give you the opportunity to clear the air and set the boundaries without constantly putting out bushfires, and more importantly it would subtly establish who's running the show.

[Almohada]

Yeah on my short film we shot 14-15 hour nights... I had like 2 people helping me set stuff up. They pretty much moved things around and then I'd go in and fine tune it the way I want it. Kept running back and forth to the monitor. We had lights all over the place so sometimes I'd ask them to move it an inch to the left... they'd do it, take 20 minutes, and it comes out wrong. So I have to run there and do it myself. Then run back. And forth. Back and forth. It sucked because it took FOREVER to light some scenes. It was pretty much only me. Sometimes they'd just stand around and watch me run back and forth. But also because most of them have never done this before. They were all doing it for free as well so I didn't expect them to be pro gaffers. But at least they helped move things around. Next time at least they'll have an idea of what to do and I'll have more people to just help move stuff and stay out of the way when we don't need them. It's just faster (kinda) to do things myself but in the long run, after 14 hours, I am totally fried.

[azmyth]

Good ideas.

On my crew I have..

- two grips/gaffers (they handle running cables, setting lights and stands according to where the DP (person in question) wants them.
- one sound guy (he monitors/booms) We have another guy who doubles on the sound team (he has production audio experience)
- 2 PA's
- 1st AC (although my DP doesn't really let him do much of that)
- Makeup/Hair
- Script Supervisor
- Set Photographer
- Craft services

and many of them double as other positions as well.

We have a pretty "big" crew for a low budget film.

He says we are trying to create cinematic images with limited gear, and crew.. The way I see it, we have more gear and crew than most productions of this size.

[Jim E]

He says we are trying to create cinematic images with limited gear, and crew.. The way I see it, we have more gear and crew than most productions of this size.

So he's a self-appointed critic as well.... wow.

I think it would do him good if you dispensed with his services. By the sound of it, you could do a better and quicker job yourself.

And it wouldn't hurt him to get a lesson on how to fit in better on a set, never mind his "superior experience".

[azmyth]

I basically told him. I was going to schedule a shoot, and DP it myself for ONE day.. just to see how it goes. I need to "understand" where he's coming from because I just don't see it taking that long..

Here's the difference between me and him..

I research. I go to forums. I watch videos. I read books. I always try to constantly learn. He only goes off what he learned in film school, which is outdated. He only thinks in terms of what he learned at film school.. which is fine when it applies.. but alof things has changed in the industry since he graduated in 2002 or whenever it was.

We are using a DSLR.. he's not familiar with it. He hasn't bothered to read up on it, or watch any videos, or read forums or do anything. I set the camera up everytime.
He complains when the way you do things on it is not how he's used to.. instead of adapting and learning new things.
"The way you white balance on this thing is stupid"..

He doesn't look at what other people are doing with "minimal" gear. Everything is based off his film school and "Standards".

I don't do things that way. I research, I look at forums, I ask questions, I watch tutorials, I buy books and read them, I buy DVD's and watch them, I ask other film makers. Even down to shooting and editing. When I set up lights.. unless I know the exact look I want.. I experiment. I move them around and watch the monitor.. when I get something that is pleasing to my eye.. I shoot. I don't nit pick for hours. When I edit. I don't meticulously pick and choose for hours. I go through the clips. I find the ones I think look best, and I edit them together until I get something pleasing to my eye.. and then I tweak it. I can edit an entire scene in a day. It would take him weeks to do the same. When I'm on set.. I'm in "urgency" mode.. if I am changing lenses.. its a few seconds tops.. him.. half an hr.. bumbling with adapters, and lenses. changing rigs.. few seconds.. him.. 15-20 minutes. And every shot has to be on a tripod because nothing else is "Steady enough". It was like pulling teeth to get a tracking shot. He won't try anything he thinks won't work. Some of the best stuff I've ever shot was doing things that I wasn't sure would work just to see how it would look.

When your on a budget, and your not hollywood you can get creative, and it doesn't have to take ages to do it.

[Almohada]

And every shot has to be on a tripod

I want to hire this guy! He must know about rolling shutter. LOL! Just kidding. I dislike EXTREME HANDHELD but I love using dolly and jib shots...stabilized... anything but crazy shaky cam.

[azmyth]

Yeah me too.. i hate shaky footage.. but I also hate boring tripod shots for everything. Anyone who has seen exit 101 knows what I am talking about. the shots just needed to be more interesting for alot of it.

[Jim E]

Yeah me too.. i hate shaky footage.. but I also hate boring tripod shots for everything.

Tripod shots are only boring to me if the tripod is pointing in the wrong direction..... if you get my drift.

About your "expert".... I'm wondering what good he is to you at all, Azmyth!

[Dr. Benway]

Tripod shots are only boring to me if the tripod is pointing in the wrong direction..... if you get my drift.

Exactly. What's going on in the scene is more important than camera flow via sliders, crane shots and other trite gimmicks.

but I also hate boring tripod shots for everything.

And that's fair enough. It is about balance and taste.

[Almohada]

I do like to keep the camera moving, only if it is done smoothly. But nowadays it is SO OVERDONE... it's become ridiculous. So on my film, I'd say 85% of it... maybe even more, is locked down tripod. I hope the festivals put aside all the BS mainstream cinematography (ridiculous amount of shallow DOF in every single shot, shaky cam, and non stop slider shots) take it as it is and focus on the story, story, story and the performances or what's going on inside the frame.

[azmyth]

I agree, but we often discuss constantly about what makes a movie look like a movie.. and the framing and camera movement are two big things there. I'm not saying to NOT use locked down shots.. I'm just saying that you do need some variation to that. For example for a "scary" mysterious scene a smooth shoulder mounted POV shot will do a better job than a locked down tripod shot of giving the sense of foreboding dread is about to happen to someone..

Other times, having the camera moving is pointless (most dialog shots) It just depends on what it is.

[drapeama]

You're forgeting choices 3 and 4. Find someone with the same skills as that guy, but works much faster, or learning to do it yourself (this forum will help him).

Both are to consider of course. I'd like Az to push toward #4 and learn it, so there would be no more restrictions about DP and lighting and having to rely on that guy only because he has more experience. It's time to get experience, and as I said, it can't be worst than what HE did on Exit 101...

Just shoot it yourself... don't rely on anyone. It's a lot of work but you'll get exactly what YOU want

Everyone learns...I've learned a lot on this short:

Even if it's definitively not the best I've done, I've experimented and did what's on the screen on a single day, as a one-man crew. So it's NOT that hard. Yeah, it's pretty basic, but it shows that it's perfectly doable on your own, even without much experience. Just go as it please your eyes, just don't push it so it looks unnatural.

I dunno. I don't think I have gotten what I want just yet.

Make some tests! You have your wife to help at home...try different setup! That's what I did with Charlie and if I had to shoot something tomorrow, in a very quick overview of the set, I'd probably be able to know how to put my lights so it looks just right. Provided you know how each lenses will react with the lights you're using (CFLs or Halogens).

experiment... experiment... experiment
trial and error... trial and error... trial and error

That's what I did, then I made a short on a single day and it ended up not so bad...another thing: Take the Risk to TRY. If it don't work, you'll know when reviewing the footage or directly when monitoring.

[Khaver]

I lost the chance to get hired at a recording studio because I took too long to set mics. I'm a perfectionist but time is money, even if you're not Hollywood. I know you said it's hard to law down the law to your crew, but if you're the producer, you must keep things under control. You hold the purse strings of yours and others money and it's up to you to spend it wisely. Make it clear to this guy that you aren't expecting perfection and you need the production to stay on schedule to stay in budget and if he's unwilling to speed up, you'll have to let him go.

[azmyth]

I've gotten more complaints today, this was a very big issue it seems. I've come close to losing several other crew members over this.

[drapeama]

Here's another one I did using a simpler technique: Hue/Saturation + Levels + Tint. This might be closer to what you need:



Sure, it can be a little brighter to show more details:

[Daniel Rutter]

So Az, is this lighting guy more beneficial than the rest of the crew?

You got a choice to make there it seems...

[drapeama]

Here's a little video, nothing much more than the pictures:


I'm currently rendering another video that shows the importance of lighting only your talent and not the background when using that technique, that way the background appears almost totally in the dark while your talent is lit as desired. I'll post it when I'll have it done.

[azmyth]

No not at all. He wasn't even involved initially. He directed EXIT 101.. I've brought up this before I think.

I hadn't involved him for this very reason, but felt bad and I'm just too nice of a guy. He had a hard time letting me "direct".

His only stake in it is having more reel material to get a gig somewhere else and GTFO.. he doesn't care about the movie per say. And he didn't even want to have anything to do with it til he found out I was hiring pro actors, and things were going "Well". My entire crew aren't pros.. most of them aren't.. but they've worked for me before and understand.

One of the crew members in question is one of the most dependable people I know. He owns alot of the cooler camera gear, and never complains, never questions my judgement. So for him to come to me with this, its a big deal. I cannot afford to lose him or others like him.

I had already decided before that this movie would get made with or without the other guy.. so thats it.