Tech companies

[Bob Sanders]

Van Heerden said in an interview with Reuters published Feb. 15 that Foxconn’s plants were “first class.” He said he was surprised “how tranquil it is compared with a garment factory.”

Heather White, the founder of Verite, another monitoring group, said that many alleged violations -- say, forced overtime or use of certain toxic chemicals -- can be hard to detect.

“Those are not things one would see on a hosted tour that was planned in advance,” she said.

Van Heerden said the comments reflected his previous interactions with Foxconn.

We’re finding tons of issues,” van Heerden said en route to a meeting where FLA inspectors were scheduled to present preliminary findings to Foxconn management.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...roup-says.html

[HueyNRolf]

Heather White, the founder of Verite, another monitoring group, said that many alleged violations -- say, forced overtime or use of certain toxic chemicals -- can be hard to detect.

Let us know when she HAS detected these alleged violations.

[Bob Sanders]

Let us know when she HAS detected these alleged violations.

Oh but they have. According to the FLA there are "tons of issues". Oh... but wait... according to the FLA things are‘way above average’ and ‘tranquil’.

Could it be the FLA has no idea what they're doing on this planned and hosted visit.... or could it be they have been bought and paid for? You be the judge

You be sure and let us know when things are ACTUALLY ‘way above average’ and ‘tranquil’, will ya?

[HueyNRolf]

Oh but they have. According to the FLA there are "tons of issues". Oh... but wait... according to the FLA things are‘way above average’ and ‘tranquil’.

Could it be the FLA has no idea what they're doing on this planned and hosted visit.... or could it be they have been bought and paid for? You be the judge
You be sure and let us know when things are ACTUALLY ‘way above average’ and ‘tranquil’, will ya?

How about Lower than average suicide rates at Foxconn.
18 vs 220 per million.

Or lower fatal workplace injuries.
7 vs 35 per million.

Or higher than average salaries for production workers.
$6K vs $4.5K

You be sure to know to let us know where Chinese production workers get a better deal?

[Bob Sanders]

Your numbers are a tad misleading.

Or higher than average salaries for production workers.
$6K vs $4.5K

Foxconn workers are doing 12 hour days. I should bloody well HOPE they make more!!

1.78x12x313days=6685
1.78x 8x313days=4457

Or lower fatal workplace injuries.
7 vs 35 per million.

The "American National average" would include such dangerous jobs as mining, oil rig work, Alaskan crab fishing.... etc

How about Lower than average suicide rates at Foxconn.
18 vs 220 per million.

The "Chinese national average" would include those who have even LESS hope than foxconn workers.... bums, the jobless, the sick, the terminal.... etc.

You be sure and let us know when you get hold of some REAL number we all can trust

[HueyNRolf]

Foxconn workers are doing 12 hour days. I should bloody well HOPE they make more!!

1.78x12x313days=6685
1.78x 8x313days=4457

So the average working day, for production workers, in China is 8 hours? Where's your data?

The "Chinese national average" would include those who have even LESS hope than foxconn workers.... bums, the jobless, the sick, the terminal.... etc.

And the rural poor, who would remain poor if it weren't for factory work.

The "American National average" would include such dangerous jobs as mining, oil rig work, Alaskan crab fishing.... etc

It also includes Americans doing non-hazardous jobs, which would be the majority.

[Bob Sanders]

So the average working day, for production workers, in China is 8 hours? Where's your data?

Where's yours?

And the rural poor, who would remain poor if it weren't for factory work.

So this makes it all okay?

It also includes Americans doing non-hazardous jobs, which would be the majority.

Huh?? What does a "majority" have to do with it??? We're talking about a national average here.

[HueyNRolf]

Where's yours?

So you pulled it out of your arse again.

So this makes it all okay?

It makes it an improvement in comparative standard of living. If those workers were better off staying at home or if they could get a better deal at another factory, why are there 3,000 people lining up at Foxconn's gate every Monday?

Huh?? What does a "majority" have to do with it??? We're talking about a national average here.

Huh yourself, the average contains everyone in the group. What percentage of Americans in those hazardous industries is included in the average? Again, where's your data? Don't bother, still stuck up your arse?

[HueyNRolf]

Oh and, you should read this:

And a very important point, again from Professor Krugman, about what determines the wages that are paid:

Wages are determined in a national labor market: The basic Ricardian model envisages a single factor, labor, which can move freely between industries. When one tries to talk about trade with laymen, however, one at least sometimes realizes that they do not think about things that way at all. They think about steelworkers, textile workers, and so on; there is no such thing as a national labor market. It does not occur to them that the wages earned in one industry are largely determined by the wages similar workers are earning in other industries. This has several consequences. First, unless it is carefully explained, the standard demonstration of the gains from trade in a Ricardian model — workers can earn more by moving into the industries in which you have a comparative advantage — simply fails to register with lay intellectuals. Their picture is of aircraft workers gaining and textile workers losing, and the idea that it is useful even for the sake of argument to imagine that workers can move from one industry to the other is foreign to them. Second, the link between productivity and wages is thoroughly misunderstood. Non-economists typically think that wages should reflect productivity at the level of the individual company. So if Xerox manages to increase its productivity 20 percent, it should raise the wages it pays by the same amount; if overall manufacturing productivity has risen 30 percent, the real wages of manufacturing workers should have risen 30 percent, even if service productivity has been stagnant; if this doesn’t happen, it is a sign that something has gone wrong. In other words, my criticism of Michael Lind would baffle many non-economists.

Associated with this problem is the misunderstanding of what international trade should do to wage rates. It is a fact that some Bangladeshi apparel factories manage to achieve labor productivity close to half those of comparable installations in the United States, although overall Bangladeshi manufacturing productivity is probably only about 5 percent of the US level. Non-economists find it extremely disturbing and puzzling that wages in those productive factories are only 10 percent of US standards.

Finally, and most importantly, it is not obvious to non-economists that wages are endogenous. Someone like Goldsmith looks at Vietnam and asks, “what would happen if people who work for such low wages manage to achieve Western productivity?” The economist’s answer is, “if they achieve Western productivity, they will be paid Western wages” — as has in fact happened in Japan. But to the non-economist this conclusion is neither natural nor plausible. (And he is likely to offer those Bangladeshi factories as a counterexample, missing the distinction between factory-level and national-level productivity).

From:

The Apple Boycott: People Are Spouting Nonsense about Chinese Manufacturing

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...manufacturing/

[Bob Sanders]

So you pulled it out of your arse again.

That's pretty much where YOUR numbers are coming from. "Chinese National Average".... what the heck does that mean? Who is included in it?

It makes it an improvement in comparative standard of living. If those workers were better off staying at home or if they could get a better deal at another factory, why are there 3,000 people lining up at Foxconn's gate every Monday?

Hue... you do what you need to so that you and your family can survive... but that doesn't for one single second even come close to suggesting ANYTHING with regard to the circumstance you must endure and the fairness of it.

Huh yourself, the average contains everyone in the group. What percentage of Americans in those hazardous industries is included in the average? Again, where's your data?

Ah... so you're asking about the same as I am above.... what does "American National Average" mean?
As I told you... your number are misleading.

[Bob Sanders]

Finally, and most importantly, it is not obvious to non-economists that wages are endogenous.

And I agree with this completely. If you should raise a foxconn employee's wage to an American minimum wage, you would soon have a very rich man (relatively speaking). However, even DOUBLING a foxconn wage doesn't achieve that.

[HueyNRolf]

That's pretty much where YOUR numbers are coming from. "Chinese National Average".... what the heck does that mean? Who is included in it?

Here's the source for those numbers:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...lly-explained/

The best way to refute them is by providing data. Merely stating that the numbers are misleading doesn't make them so.

[HueyNRolf]

However, even DOUBLING a foxconn wage doesn't achieve that.

I don't think the FLA findings are out yet? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[1]

numbers

They pay them workers way too much!
You have to keep 'em down and wanting...
(I have to afford my SL600 Mercedes somehow, after all!!!)


But seriously,
3200RMB/month is a decent [factory] wage here in Beijing, and Foxconn has most its locations in cheaper locations, so it's a decent wage (compared to others).
It will depend a lot on other working conditions though, even in China salary and wages only contribute a portion of overall worker morale!
So I would agree, just paying double will hardly be a 100% solution to the problem (if there even IS one!).

[Dr. Benway]

just paying double

And can cause social unrest and competition (violence), and corruption. As people vie for a Foxconn factory job paying twice that of the others.

[Bob Sanders]

Here's the source for those numbers:

I see absolutely NOTHING on that page which describes in ANY detail the term "Chinese National Average" You're tossing sh!t down the river in hopes it floats.

[Bob Sanders]

3200RMB/month is a decent [factory] wage here in Beijing,

Yeah... and you could even make more if you work 20hours a day, 7 days a week! Hell... who needs sleep, or holidays anyway.

[Bob Sanders]

And can cause social unrest and competition (violence),

Yup happens here just about every day of the week

[1]

Yeah... and you could even make more if...

Yeah, because in the USA and Canada NO ONE has two (or more) jobs or works overtime!!!

DOH!!!

[Bob Sanders]

Yeah, because in the USA and Canada NO ONE has two (or more) jobs or works overtime!!!

DOH!!!

When I work over time I get wage times 1.5 (wage times 2 on Sundays, holidays)

[HueyNRolf]

Apple announces new iPad with 3.1M-pixel Retina Display, 4G LTE, voice dictation


Key Features
High-definition Retina Display
New A5X chip with quad-core graphics
5-megapixel iSight camera with advanced optics, shoots 1080p video
4G LTE models allow for connections to faster wireless networks
Still offers the same 10-hour battery life.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...a_display.html

[cgbier]

The video to the iPad introduction event:
http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.ne...ent/index.html

Amazing!

[1]

When I work over time I get wage times 1.5

That's great. Same in China. In fact, the Chinese labor laws are far more employee friendly than the USA ones.
They were, after all, modeled from the German ones, and HEAVILY revised for 2010.

You seem to be like one of THE MANY people in North America who spouts rumors, half-truths, and old anecdotal stories
up until the point when what you are saying is COMPLETELY WRONG, and you look back and wonder how such a "terribly horrible and unjust" country like China
could take over the world, and end up with much better living standards...

[Bob Sanders]

half-truths, and old anecdotal stories
up until the point when what you are saying is COMPLETELY WRONG, and you look back and wonder how such a "terribly horrible and unjust" country like China

Please show me where in the world I said China was an "unjust" Country?!? In fact it was OTHERS on this board who (in a round about way) stated China hasn't the capacity to operate factories in a western fashion.... too dumb I guess was the meaning.

So you're saying Foxconn pays overtime? I don't think so.

BTW.... just about ANY Country has friendlier labor laws that the USA. On the other hand.... you don't see the USA censoring parts of the internet either.

[HueyNRolf]

The video to the iPad introduction event:
http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.ne...ent/index.html

Amazing!

Oh yes and those new iLife apps. Very nice.