Upgrading sound gear; $4-500 budget. Suggestions?

[Daniel Rutter]

Hey guys;

Next year I will be upgrading my gear for a possible feature film shoot, and I know my Rode Videomic isn't going to really "cut it" for all round dialog.

I'm looking for two good mics to give me the best sound for both indoor and outdoor shooting.

I've looked at the Rode NTG-2 to replace as my shotgun mic, but I need something that will give me decent dialog recording indoors. Any suggestions here would be appreciated.

I'm also going to be buying a boom pole, and general accessories for the mics such as deadcats, shockmounts and cable.

If you have any suggestions, feel free to share them! Reviews on what products you have would be appreciated as well

[Dr. Benway]

I know my Rode Videomic isn't going to really "cut it" for all round dialog.

Firstly, run that RØDE over in your funky black car. I'd say you are on the right track with looking at high quality microphones. What are you recording on - a Zoom or into your camera?

[Daniel Rutter]

At the moment a Zoom H1 Doc. I'm thinking about upgrading (well, moving to and selling my H1) to one of the Tascam recorders (Draps just bought one).

I'm looking at AT MB4K for indoor dialog recording, but from what I'm reading it's more of a vocals mic for music recording... which I'd imagine is not all that sensitive if I was to boom it over talent? I've looked at a few of the Sennheiser range of ENG mics, but I don't think any of them are all that cheap (or "affordable").

As for the Videomic, I'll chuck it on my GH1 or something as "backup" sound, and use it to get a better sync track.

[dop16mm]

Give this a try in the short run and see how it works, because the upgrades you want will cost closer to $2k minimum to get a significant improvement...

Attach your H1 to the video mic with some velcro tape and record direct. Get a boom-pole and and hot-shoe adapter to get it in the right place.

With the short built in cable run the videomic can sound just as good as an ngt-2, It's down-side as a boom mic is unbalanced cable extensions. If you go directly into a compact recorder at the top of the boom you'll eliminate cable handling noise, unbalanced hum, etc. Just get a headphone cable extension and tape that down the boom similar to how you'd do mic cable.

The downside is there is no way to ride levels during a shot, but how many of us are doing that with our current gear anyway, take a test, adjust levels and shoot.

[Daniel Rutter]

dop16mm, I neglected to mention I have the ability to hook in XLR mics through a Beachtek adapter I got recently (part of a package deal with HV30 and extras). I would much rather work with XLR/balanced cables into my H1.

The "significant" improvements for me would just make audio sound much better than my Videomic will ever sound. It's a piece of sh*t. The NTG2 is a step up as far as I'm concerned. I've used it in the past, and was very impressed with the sound quality. BUT, the problem still pesists... I need a good indoor-use condenser or something that will allow me to capture dialog.

For me, anything is an improvement. If you have suggestions, please share. I'm not filming a feature with a Videomic.

[dop16mm]

The problem with moving to a hypercardioid, (no disputing quality), is that in my research there aren't any that run on battery power like may short shotguns do. You need something that provide phantom power. So you can't just get a new mic, you'll need an xlr recorder and or a good pre-amp/mixer. For the money you have now I'd say get the xlr short shotgun with battery power like the rode NGT-2. I've used a similar rig made by beyerdynamic, for 20 years and has been more than good enough for microbudget. They may not be perfect on interiors, but are adequate with anyone you can manage to get to hold the boom.

To get much better than this your talking about a fairly expensive upgrade path, and ideally someone on your crew team that you can train to use it properly. Make friends with a soundman. If you're small market like me that probably won't be a true field recordist, but maybe someone that works with bands, if they're good they'll at least know how the use headphones and what things are supposed to sound like.

[drapeama]

Next year I will be upgrading my gear for a possible feature film shoot, and I know my Rode Videomic isn't going to really "cut it" for all round dialog.
I'm looking for two good mics to give me the best sound for both indoor and outdoor shooting.
I've looked at the Rode NTG-2 to replace as my shotgun mic [..] Any suggestions here would be appreciated.

1) It's certainly not the best for a few reasons. But don't get rid of it, there's always a reason to keep stuff that works, especially if you'll be using better gear.
2) I don't know when you'll be upgrading your gear, but I'm about to do a video comparing different microphone I own at the moment. I should have it done by the early 2012.
3) From what I've tested so far (tested it quickly with charlie half-sleeping in front of the TV) and it's definitively a step over the SGM-1x. I first thought it would be less sensitive than the Azden, but it simply tend to pick up less noise/ambience than it.
4) So far, I would suggest you both the MB4K & NTG-2...and the Azden EX-503 for lav uses. I prefer the 503 over the 3350 from Audio-Technica: picks up less ambience and can be easier to make a good "mix" in post, the voice being the center channel without much ambience and the "foley" ambience being present more in other channels. I think, when mixing 5.1 sound, the more the voice is "separated" from the rest, the best you're able to mix it to your taste, without trying to "clean" it and "working with what you have"...
As I said, I plan to produce a video comparing different microphones, indoor and possibly outdoor too, depending on the weather.

At the moment a Zoom H1 Doc. I'm thinking about upgrading (well, moving to and selling my H1) to one of the Tascam recorders (Draps just bought one).
I'm looking at AT MB4K for indoor dialog recording, but from what I'm reading it's more of a vocals mic for music recording... which I'd imagine is not all that sensitive if I was to boom it over talent?
As for the Videomic, I'll chuck it on my GH1 or something as "backup" sound, and use it to get a better sync track.

1) The Zoom(s), whatever the model, are all great, depending on the feature you need. I sold my H2 for a more entry-level model because I simply didn't need all those features. The 4ch surround recording is probably great, but I never used it at all other than testing it. Nice for LIVE music recording I guess. I've bought the Tascam DR-05 because it was simpler, there's a hold button on it to avoid stopping the recording accidentally too, which can be useful. There's a 1/4-20 hole in the back, not below, which is also a good thing. I've managed to fix that on the H2 and I was liking it better laying down rather than holding up (less risks to damage it). The Tascam (so far) gives the same quality, isn't built like a toy (just as the H2) and the buttons on it are simply what you need to operate it, nothing else.
2) The MB4K, as you can hear how it can sound "camera-mounted" and "boomed" in the DIY ~35$ boompole thread, is quite a good vocal mic. That being said, I've run the tests using a JuicedLink to boost the sound a bit while recording, then I was normalizing it in Audacity. In the next test, I'll try to run both the JuicedLink and the Beachteck (as I kept it) so we'll know how it sounds with and without a preamp and what can be achieved in post if you have or don't have one when recording. It's mainly a vocal mic, you're right, but when I read the specs, I thought it would do a good job. From what I've recorded using it, I've been pleased because of the price I've paid, and from the quality it gives compared to other expensive microphones. Indoor, boomed or not, it's a decent mic considering the challenge of recording sound with walls echo/reverb. When I'll do the tests, I'll try to incorporate a scene with both the NTG-2 and the MB4K camera-mounted, so we'll be able to tell the difference indoor and outdoor.
About the sensitivity of it, it's not, as it's a vocal mic. But like I said, camera-mounted with a JuicedLink boosting it's signal, it gave decent results picking up pretty much all (good thing for LIVE sound I'd say) but when boomed, close enough, even without a preamp, it would certainly give quite good results: not boosted = less sensitive > picking up less noise so normalizing would simply boosting what's been picked up. That will need a test to confirm, but I'd say, it should work well.
3) That would be the best thing to do Dan. That way, you'll have a good audio track to sync in post. And if it ever fails somewhere, you'll have a backup to work with for ADR to replace your recording that failed.

dop16mm, I neglected to mention I have the ability to hook in XLR mics through a Beachtek adapter I got recently [..] I would much rather work with XLR/balanced cables into my H1.
The "significant" improvements for me would just make audio sound much better than my Videomic will ever sound. It's a piece of sh*t. The NTG2 is a step up as far as I'm concerned. I've used it in the past, and was very impressed with the sound quality. BUT, the problem still pesists... I need a good indoor-use condenser or something that will allow me to capture dialog.

1) Using a beachteck will give you balanced signal (provided your mic is, running on XLR connections) so the "only" place it won't be balance is the short 3.5mm cable at the end of it which will plug into the recorder. Not a big issue so far.
2) As I said, the Beachteck will run a balance signal without problem and the 3.5mm cable isn't long enough to give you trouble. Best solution would be a recorder with direct XLR input (H4n / DR-100) but I'd say it wouldn't worth the investment. Not for me though, and we're on the same budget so!
3) I'd say there's no need to invest 3-4000$ in audio gear to "hear" an improvement. Just using your equipment properly would definitively be enough (not that I'm saying you're not doing it right). So far, the NTG2 is the most expensive mic I've bought. Worth every cents I've invested so far, but what I'm saying is that inexpensive gear can do a good job, simply using the right tool for the right task.
4) The NTG2 is certainly a good step, from my SGM-1x is was and the Azden isn't a bad mic at all...so! The sound quality is indeed impressive!
5) About indoor use, I'll try to give a try to these tests later this weekend with charlie, as the kids will be with their Dad this weekend, so we will have enough time working on it!


I want to help you as much as I can with advises and tips, just let me some time to prepare something demonstrating what works in which situations. Then you'll be able to decide what's the best for you. Take some time and watch the last 2 videos I've uploaded on my vimeo, the MB4K test and the BoomPole version 2 (normalized and well mastered audio this time).
You have my email if any other questions!?

[drapeama]

The problem with moving to a hypercardioid, (no disputing quality), is that in my research there aren't any that run on battery power like may short shotguns do. You need something that provide phantom power. So you can't just get a new mic, you'll need an xlr recorder and or a good pre-amp/mixer. For the money you have now I'd say get the xlr short shotgun with battery power like the rode NGT-2.

1) Talking about quality, I've bought one hypercardioid mic, from Audio-Technica, which doesn't run on battery and doesn't need phantom power. It's a dynamic one though, so requires to be boomed CLOSE and be used with a preamp. You can hear it in the video I was talking previously: ATM-650. It gives the best "crisp and rich" voice so far, but it's not very sensitive. It's that one I've used for the voice over in "The Last Goodbye", and I've recorded that audio segment in front of my computer at the time, still clean sound out of it.
2) A preamp isn't required with most of the mic, but it's certainly not a bad thing to add to the list! I own 2 JuicedLink and I don't regret the price paid for them.

That being said, there's no perfect mic for "multi-task" but there's certainly some that are good for a lot of things. The MB4k is one that comes to my mind as I own it, used it and got great results out of it so far.
I'll try to get these tests done soon, so we'll be able to tell which one's the best. Then we'll have a good idea. If there's other members that have suggestions, I'd like to know, and if it'd be possible to record and post some tests, that would be even better, so I wouldn't be the only one demonstrating how to get good audio on a microbudget!

[drapeama]

Hey Dan, I'm currently working on a short and quick test I've done with charlie tonight. I've recorded with the Lav on the T2i and I've used the Tascam to record the boomed audio, indoor, using these mics:
1) Audio-Technica MB4k
2) RØDE NTG-2
3) Audio-Technica ATM-650
4) Cheap shotgun (similar to the ATR-55)

Boomed mic will be on the right while the lav will be left only. That way you'll have a good idea how it sounds, all mic compared in the same environement. There was no external audio source except my computer running on charlie's left. Huey would probably say it's not fair as we don't hear properly what's being picked up, but on the other hand, we hear all the "noise" being picked up. Next one, I'll try in a more noisy environement.
The test should be up by tomorrow night.

[Jim-in-LA]

I love my Sennheiser MKE400s mics. Small for mounting on the camera, and light when on the end of a boom pole.

[drapeama]

I love my Sennheiser MKE400s mics. Small for mounting on the camera, and light when on the end of a boom pole.

Not the best idea to mount a mic that connects using 3.5mm over XLR. Ever had any issue in the sound doing so?

[drapeama]

Hey Dan, I've finished the video, I'll upload it tonight, probably on youtube as the vimeo limit has been reached. That, or I'll upload the file on megaupload.com so you'll be able to download the video directly.
I'll let you know.

[Daniel Rutter]

No worries Draps. Very much appreciated

[drapeama]

No worries Draps. Very much appreciated

Not the best quality, but it's up on youtube:


Now I'm debating with charlie if it would worth 60$/year for Vimeo+...
If you want, I can compress the audio "properlly" and put it online so you can download it in an excellent quality.
If you have any questions, concerns or anything else, I'd like some feedback. Bare in mind that is a quick test and we did everything within 20minutes.

Let me know.

[Almohada]

Now I'm debating with charlie if it would worth 60$/year for Vimeo+...

Just make a second account

[drapeama]

Just make a second account

I prefer to have all my videos linked to the same account! Otherwise it looks and it's messy.
I'll see. As I said to Daniel, I can always upload just the sound file so he'll be able to get the same audio as I had when editing the video. That's the best I could do.

So far, what you think about the performances of these microphones, indoor? Not so bad for the price paid: MB4K, ATM-650, NTG-2, ATR6550 (it's actually more an old mic from another brand close to the ATR55).

[Almohada]

So far, what you think about the performances of these microphones, indoor?

MB4K wasn't bad! Actually the NTG-2 and the MB4K were very similar. How come there is hiss in the right channel? Mono? Anyways I panned my speakers to the left so I don't hear the hiss.

Oh yeah, I thought the cat was hilarious. It kept looking up at the microphones!

[drapeama]

MB4K wasn't bad! Actually the NTG-2 and the MB4K were very similar. How come there is hiss in the right channel? Mono? Anyways I panned my speakers to the left so I don't hear the hiss.
Oh yeah, I thought the cat was hilarious. It kept looking up at the microphones!

1) I thought the same about the MB4k and NTG-2. As described in the 20 first seconds, right channel is the microphones recorded on a boom pole while the left channel is the lavalier, for demonstrating how both can sounds indoor. The lav being the best of all here, but just to show the difference, and an actual voice recording indoor for the EX-503. It's the only one I have at the moment (no Audio-Technica lav) and from what I've heard, I won't buy the other.
2) I've adjusted the EQ on it, but I'm still having hard times to get rid of that "hiss" problem. In the previous video, Janke posted a comment about it too. I'll try to improve for the next ones, but so far, I'm having hard times to fix the problem.
3) As I said, one channel per mic at the time, so recorded in mono with the Tascam (saves half the space on the memory card that way). If you panned your speakers to the left only, then you've only listened to the lav mic, so it indeed sounded pretty similar! loll
4) Yep, the cat even tried to bite one mic between the beachtek qand the juicedlink takes. Unfortunately, not recorded...


edit: also, the first part, being recorded without a preamp will probably sound a little worst because of the low-signal of the mics being fed directly to the recorded without amplification. Then normalizing it in post did certainly accentuated the level of "noise" recorded. I simply cut a little part of the low and high frequencies (like I usually do) and I've added a track compressor (input -10dB and 5dB output). I let the same settings for all audio clip, to be fair and not working more on one and not another.

[Almohada]

1) I thought the same about the MB4k and NTG-2. As described in the 20 first seconds, right channel is the microphones recorded on a boom pole while the left channel is the lavalier, for demonstrating how both can sounds indoor. The lav being the best of all here, but just to show the difference, and an actual voice recording indoor for the EX-503. It's the only one I have at the moment (no Audio-Technica lav) and from what I've heard, I won't buy the other.

OHHHH MY. I thought the right channel was just from the camera or something so I shut it off and was listening to the left channel only!!! LAV WINS!

[Daniel Rutter]

Thanks for that Draps. I do like that the MB4k sounds very much the same to the NTG2... but there is somethin about using the NTG2 indoors that I absolutely don't like. Just haven't figured that one out yet.

[Jim-in-LA]

Not the best idea to mount a mic that connects using 3.5mm over XLR. Ever had any issue in the sound doing so?

I don't use XLR line with my boom. No problems using 3.5mm cable extension.

[Almohada]

I don't use XLR line with my boom. No problems using 3.5mm cable extension.

So your mic isn't an XLR? it has a 3.5mm out?

[drapeama]

Thanks for that Draps. I do like that the MB4k sounds very much the same to the NTG2... but there is somethin about using the NTG2 indoors that I absolutely don't like. Just haven't figured that one out yet.

1) Good, if you have a better idea now, I'm glad.
2) The MB4k is a great mic for the price and definitively worth the money invested, especially when used with a preamp. I'll try to make another video with some of the best examples I have of footage I've shot using it camera mounted on my figrig. Indoor in different location and it sounds quite good. I've posted one I've shot at a reception but I have 2-3 other video (mainly charlie's kids' birthday) where you can have a very good idea how good it sounds.
3) The NTG-2 really surprised me to be honnest. It really did a good job, close to the MB4k without much wall reflections.

I don't use XLR line with my boom. No problems using 3.5mm cable extension.

If it works well then there's no problem. Whatever the tool, as long as the job gets done properlly. I've used an extension cable on my Lav plugged in the T2i, in a living room with a TV and a computer running on the left. No problem and no signal interferences. I've been surprised.

So your mic isn't an XLR? it has a 3.5mm out?

The cheap mic that's close to an ATR55 was originally 3.5mm but I've soldered an XLR connector at the end to use it with my beachtek at the time. I simply don't use it anymore, but I kept it. It doesn't sound bad, but it's not a very expensive mic...

[Almohada]

The cheap mic that's close to an ATR55 was originally 3.5mm but I've soldered an XLR connector at the end to use it with my beachtek at the time. I simply don't use it anymore, but I kept it. It doesn't sound bad, but it's not a very expensive mic...

No I was talking to Jim. Just asking if his mic only used 3.5mm

[drapeama]

I love my Sennheiser MKE400s mics.

I don't use XLR line with my boom. No problems using 3.5mm cable extension.

No I was talking to Jim. Just asking if his mic only used 3.5mm

From both Jim's quotes: Yes it's 3.5mm (Here's the B&H link.) and yes he's probably only using 3.5mm mics. Personally, I don't see any problem as long as the audio he gets out of it is noise and interference free...then it's ok.