Migrating to FCP

[chipgallo]

I have been editing with Vegas since 2002, mostly ice skating and some interviews. Now that Vegas Pro 11 is driving me to upgrade my hardware, I am rethinking the computing environment. The Walter Murch interview at the FCPUG also stimulated my brains a bit.

Looking for something in an i7, at least 12GB, a tower. I am thinking of FCP X since I have no legacy projects, no shared network, no XML requirement. Then learn and grow as Apple adds the old capabilities back. If the same system could run Avid then that is a plus.

I do want to author Blu-ray discs as well as DVD. Most of my projects are less than 2 hours. Some fulfillment is done via the web.

I have a Samsung B2330H LCD monitor with a Huey Pro analyzer. It has marginal grey scale and doesn't set up very well. I use a Canon HF-G10 and HV40 for the ice rink and the lighting varies greatly in temperature so camera matching is a crap shoot.

Is this a good time to invest in Mac hardware? In the metro DC area, is there a good place to get support for video editing? Is $2k-$3K a good ballpark price range?

TIA,
Chip

[dearcatastrophe]

it's debatable. apple is right now lingering over the fate of the mac pro line. they have in the past and usually stick to it and bring out a new one, but now with jobs gone, who knows how they'll feel about keeping a slow sales and growth line.
that said, i love my mac pro.

what are the hardware specs for vegas 11? i would think if you use vegas, are happy with it, why not upgrade in line with vegas, it would be a lot cheaper to go with a comparable i7 pc then to move over to a mac.

[chipgallo]

it's debatable. apple is right now lingering over the fate of the mac pro line. they have in the past and usually stick to it and bring out a new one, but now with jobs gone, who knows how they'll feel about keeping a slow sales and growth line.
that said, i love my mac pro.

I was thinking more along the lines of product refreshes, where the previous models become available on the used or refurb market.

what are the hardware specs for vegas 11? i would think if you use vegas, are happy with it, why not upgrade in line with vegas, it would be a lot cheaper to go with a comparable i7 pc then to move over to a mac.

Cost is a factor, but also marketability. Instead of me building a custom PC for ~$1500-$2000, if I can buy a Mac for $3000 and run Vegas, FCPX and maybe Avid, after the learning curves, I am able to work in more markets and for a diversity of clients. In the future I can also share projects across a network and have several edit stations and such.

[dearcatastrophe]

Avid on Mac is horrible. MC runs much better in windows, as does pro tools. There is a lot of animosity between Avid and Apple.

You can pick up a great i7 pc system for a lot less. especially now that ram has dropped to stupid prices. for mobile editing i use an i7 laptop with 16gb ram, two internal drives, and a full hd screen, which all cost under 800 bucks.
I've sold some serious pc's lately that I picked up, including a dual quad core pc that i bought for 500 bucks from a local pawn shop. two core2duo extremes.

the only problem with the mac pro is the lack of quality supported video cards. I'm still using a gtx285 mac version. now that they are thinking about dropping the line, it's even worst. there may not be many more refreshes.

i'm still out on the performance of fcpx ona dual quad machine, especially since it just became 64bit. i don't know if i'd gamble on a platform change on an infant software and no promise of mac pro support in the future.

don't get me wrong, i've been a die hard apple user for a long time. the changes in fcpx show their interest in more consumer intensive market, and that spells doom for the mac pro. with a lack of upgrades, it's a good pc with a limited shelf life.

[chipgallo]

Thanks for the tip. I'm checking prices on AppleInsider. Maybe a MINI with the Thunderbolt external capabilities coming online. Cheaper too. I'm accustomed to waiting a while for renders anyway.

[cgbier]

Screw the mini. For real powerful editing it is not enough (you're thinking of Avid - why, btw?). For FCP X it should do fine though. I use FCP X on a 2010 i7 MBP. It's a bit slower than the latest Minis.

DC, sorry, you are spreading a little of FUD here. The only reason that there haven been any new Mac Pro lately is because of Intel. They don't get them Sandy Bridges ready. What other video than the ATIs do you need? nVidia only give you some advantages with the latest Adobe software on the Mac. If you go graphics workstation quality, then there's ample choice.

Chipgallo, for 2-3k you only get an iMac. A "real" Mac Pro starts at about 5k. Anything below is on about the same speed level as an i7 iMac. The only advantage you get out of the entry level Mac Pro is the server/workstation grade hardware.
The new Mac Pro is supposed to come out in spring 2012. Intel has just published the prices for their new CPUs. There might be some 2010 models on the second hand market, but don't think you'll get good deals. Mac Pros hold their value pretty well.

Most of the critique about FCP X that Walther Murch brought forth in his speech has been addressed by Apple with the release of 10.1.

[chipgallo]

Screw the mini. For real powerful editing it is not enough (you're thinking of Avid - why, btw?). For FCP X it should do fine though. I use FCP X on a 2010 i7 MBP. It's a bit slower than the latest Minis.

I'm liking a 2011 Mini with the optional i7 upgrade and 8GB. As far as Avid goes, just thinking about making a living.

Chipgallo, for 2-3k you only get an iMac. A "real" Mac Pro starts at about 5k. Anything below is on about the same speed level as an i7 iMac. The only advantage you get out of the entry level Mac Pro is the server/workstation grade hardware.
The new Mac Pro is supposed to come out in spring 2012. Intel has just published the prices for their new CPUs. There might be some 2010 models on the second hand market, but don't think you'll get good deals. Mac Pros hold their value pretty well.

Sounds like I can learn the FCP ropes on a Mini. I'll still have Vegas 10 on a Windows box as well. I need it for multi cam apparently. Walter Murch was inspirational. I appreciated his honesty as a user of an application that is going through a modernization. There are often growing pains but it also is a learning opportunity. And the price is right :-)

Thanks for the insightful comments.

[cgbier]

I need it for multi cam apparently.

Not really. While multicam isn't built into FCP X, it is possible (and the flow is less complicated than in FCP Classic).

What genre are you thinking of making a living in? Hollywood? Event/wedding? Sports? Documentation? ...?

[dearcatastrophe]

Screw the mini. For real powerful editing it is not enough (you're thinking of Avid - why, btw?). For FCP X it should do fine though. I use FCP X on a 2010 i7 MBP. It's a bit slower than the latest Minis.

DC, sorry, you are spreading a little of FUD here. The only reason that there haven been any new Mac Pro lately is because of Intel. They don't get them Sandy Bridges ready. What other video than the ATIs do you need? nVidia only give you some advantages with the latest Adobe software on the Mac. If you go graphics workstation quality, then there's ample choice.

Chipgallo, for 2-3k you only get an iMac. A "real" Mac Pro starts at about 5k. Anything below is on about the same speed level as an i7 iMac. The only advantage you get out of the entry level Mac Pro is the server/workstation grade hardware.
The new Mac Pro is supposed to come out in spring 2012. Intel has just published the prices for their new CPUs. There might be some 2010 models on the second hand market, but don't think you'll get good deals. Mac Pros hold their value pretty well.

Most of the critique about FCP X that Walther Murch brought forth in his speech has been addressed by Apple with the release of 10.1.

Like I said, right now it's rumors but it's the big news on appleinsider and macrumors. the pro has been teetering for a while, expecially since the servers were cut from the line. The mac pro hardware at the entry level isn't anything special. just because it uses workstation grade components doesn't mean much.
Unless you are looking at a dual processor setup, you can build a hackintosh out of an asus i7 that runs just as fast and just as good.

ATI? What the 5770? You can run new 6870 Ati cards if you are willing to tweak the system a little, but as far as power, they just aren't there. there is no aftermarket support and there is no point on going with ATI if you plan on incorporating premier or after effects, but the only cuda card you will find is the 285.

The last real workstation quality mac pro is the 2008 models, with the actual e54xx cpu's besides the dual quads and sixes they offer now. buying a single cpu mac pro isn't smart.

check the rumor sites, there has been a lot more buzz, the same kind of buzz that came around the demise of the xserve. the mac pro doesn't fit apple now.

[dearcatastrophe]

Avid MC 6 just showed up and i'm waiting to see if its as anti-climatic as pro tools 10. the only big change is 64 bit support that marks some note. i wouldn't go to apple in hopes or want to run MC.

i don't know if i would go with the mini either. Macbook pro i7 is a great machine, and you can pick up the i7 2.6 dual core for a song these days.

[dearcatastrophe]

and as far as FUD, well, it's tumultous times at 1 infinite loop. better to be aware of all the rumors then just buy blindly into the biz.

[cgbier]

I buy a computer, I don't want to buy Apple. That "Apple is dropping the 'pros'" is utter nonsense. They dropped the ball with releasing FCP X one year too early (under pressure of said 'pros'), and have to wait for Intel to get the processors ready.

Why should the Mac Pro not fit to Apple anymore? Just because they also sell cellphones?

[dearcatastrophe]

the mac pro doesn't fit their newish consumer image. the price of the mac pro has gone up more for cheaper hardware, so they have a great profit margin but they don't back the market like they used to.
the days of running several mac pros backed to a xserve just isnt there. why do you think they moved osx server to a mini?
apple dropping the mac pro is the next logical move for them, since they aren't a key market for apple anymore.
has nothing to do with apples other business ventures, this is about their trend in movement.

[dearcatastrophe]

Apple has made so many consumer moves, dumping shake, moving everything to the app store, making fcpx, making the imac much more competitive with the mac pro. so many changes over the last year. Has nothing to do with dumping "pro's" it has to do with filling their mrket for mainstream consumers. i'm sure they are happy pro's are still using their stuff, and buying their stuff, but they aren't doing a thing to cater to those people. FCPX is a great example.

[Dr. Benway]

chip, expressing interest in something means 'something's there'. I would follow up on the urge to experience Apple computers by getting around them. Go to a retail outlet hang out and ask for some demonstrations - get a taste for that which you are interested. If you haven't already.

[dearcatastrophe]

chip, expressing interest in something means 'something's there'. I would follow up on the urge to experience Apple computers by getting around them. Go to a retail outlet hang out and ask for some demonstrations - get a taste for that which you are interested. If you haven't already.

I don't mean in any way to chase you from choosing, I swear by apple products and absolutely love my mac pro, macbook pro and wifes macbook. i just want to cover all basis and possibilities.

[chipgallo]

Not really. While multicam isn't built into FCP X, it is possible (and the flow is less complicated than in FCP Classic).

What genre are you thinking of making a living in? Hollywood? Event/wedding? Sports? Documentation? ...?

That's good because my current work uses 2 cameras (ice skating). I have been employed in the federal space in DC since the mid 1980's and know how the procurement process works from both sides. I'd like my 3rd career to be with small businesses selling into this market (8a, minority owned) and I have good contacts. When you partner this way, interoperability is important as you wear different hats for different engagements. I can be a project manager, acquisition, editor or marketing guy. Doing IT for over 30 years, I can maintain computers as well.

I don't need to look far to see a FCP suite. We have one in our public affairs department. They tend to be very opinionated about Macs so I am doing market research outside first.

[found this link on a Guatemalan studio using Minis on DVInfo: http://provideocoalition.com/index.p...om_guatemala/]

[cgbier]

I think you get more computer with an iMac than with a Mini. Huey uses one with FCS. However, I'd assume those Guatemalan guys will run into trouble with Color and Motion on the Mini, and they mention in the article that for DaVinci they have to go back to their MacPros. There's no mention about how old the Pros are and with what specs. If they are 4-cores from the first series, then the mini beats it by processor speed. The article is mainly concentrating on disk i/o. You could plug a Pegasus via TB in a pocket calculator. Even that would beat a Pro with SATA and software RAID.

Their Minis have about the same specs as my 2010 MBP. It works fine with FCP X (it flies) and Compressor, so so with Motion 5, barely with the free version of DaVinci. FCP 6 and Compressor are great, Motion 3 so so, Color is nothing to write home about. An iMac with its one or 2 GB GPU would do a better job. I've been looking into the Mini myself, but every time I price one, I end up with an iMac (based on GPU and the gorgeous screen built in).

If you have only two cameras, that is a piece of cake with FCP X. The beautiful thing is that FCP X synchs your footage automatically (no more Plural Eyes or eyeballing), and you have thumbnails in the timeline, so you simply can cut back and forth. I have posted a link to a tutorial here somewhere.

You mentioned you needed to get new hardware for Vegas 11. Wouldn't it be easier for you to beef up your PC to avoid the learning curve? I mean, Macs are pretty easy to use, and, compared to FCP CLassic, FCP X is pretty intuitive, but you'll still need some time to get used to the change. Bad idea if you run a business.

[chipgallo]

You mentioned you needed to get new hardware for Vegas 11. Wouldn't it be easier for you to beef up your PC to avoid the learning curve? I mean, Macs are pretty easy to use, and, compared to FCP CLassic, FCP X is pretty intuitive, but you'll still need some time to get used to the change. Bad idea if you run a business.

I'm employed full time as a IT manager until around 2015. After that I can "retire" and do other things. During my busy season of ice skating, I'll keep using Vegas 10 and the VASST quad cam script. There's not much to compel me on the Vegas 11 upgrade, but my Intel Q6600 is getting a little long in the tooth compared to the new Intel chips. I was a fan of the early Macs and used them for print jobs. I supported them in the 1980s and even put a Mac card in an Amiga. I like to learn by selecting easy projects, doing tutorials and RTFM, then trying to improve my skills. Right now seems like a good time to do that with FCP.

[cgbier]

To be honest, FCP X is in its infancy, and I think it will have a great future, so you might actually have a huge advantage in the "market" if you know it deeply enough.
You are in IT long enough to remember the teeth gnashing and whining about FCP 1, but it still made it the most used NLE. Just took some 5 years....

[chipgallo]

Moving FCP from 32 to 64 bits was key, but new code is painful for people who have to be productive. Some apps never make or survive this transition due to the costs and compatibility issues. In the long run for me, if it doesn't seem productive, I have an Adobe CS5.5 (Master Collection) already on the Windows box.

Thanks for the questions. It helps to discus the overall plan. btw, I had taken a "break" from editing between 1988 and around 2002. This was after doing cuts only on a Panasonic 3/4" system at Montgomery Community Television in Maryland. Waiting in line for a Dubner session or a dissolve ... killed my interest for a while.

[cgbier]

Moving FCP from 32 to 64 bits was key

Yeah, that was Apple's problem with the migration. FCP X wasn't ready for primetime yet, but FCS 3 was already 2 years old. The village people had already the torches and pitch forks out hammering on the doors of Steve's castle "give us a new FCP! Give us 64 bit" The village people got what they wanted one year too early, but weren't happy, "Apple screwed us over!" so they dug out the pitch forks again to hammer on the doors again "Give us! Give us!" they shout.

[cgbier]

I started editing Hi8 and S-VHS on LINUX machines with Broadcast2000 (was a pain to get the Pinnacle capture card to run) and Video Toaster for Amiga. Those were the times...

Glad that I do it professionally only since we got somewhat fast systems.

[dearcatastrophe]

I remember when toasters hit the market. we thought the flyer was the end all be all.

[cgbier]

For its time, it was a great system. Most of all, it was affordable, contrary to Media100 or Avid.
I have the Amigas in storage... some now and then I feel tempted to dig them out and play around a bit, and with the JVC S-VHS broadcast cams we used that time.