London Rioters - Sickening

[Daniel Rutter]

No doubt you guys have heard about the London riots. Who hasn't, right?

Well I figured it was business as usual for some part of the world to be under seige, but whilst watching a viral video on Youtube I noticed a link to a video that caught my eye. What I watched, was simply disgusting.



Is this what rioters are really after? Are they fighting for freedom or are they looking for an excuse to take advantage of people knocked down and hurting?

Seriously, this friggin disgusting... this is the state of our teenagers these days. I'm about 2 years out of teenagerism (is that a word?) and not a single kid I grew up with would take part in what is happening in London right now.

I guess justice will be served. If police don't do something soon, vigalante's will have their fun and bust heads. Frankly, I hope they do. These "kids" have been causing damage and violence all through London, someone should give them a little taste of their own medicine.

Your thoughts on the situation?

[GeorgeMaier]

I'm obviously in England. The riots have been happening at several of the biggest cities in the country. There is no motive behind it - it is simply criminals acting disgusting.

I actually did a video blog touching on a few of my thoughts about the issue yesterday.



No excuses at all for the behaviour. Currently there is a petition going around, started yesterday, to deny all convicted rioters of all state benefits/pensions. It already has 70,815 signatures, it only needs 100,000 to be raised in the houses of parliament for debate. The government petitions website is so flooded that it's hit or miss that you can get on - never before has a petition had so much interest. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337 - if you live in the UK, consider signing it.

It remains to be said that there are a couple of thousand rioters, in the voluntary clean up program over 200,000 have turned up in cities to help fix the problem, the rioters do not reflect my country.

Edit add on: I found this picture yesterday and I found it truly upsetting

It has the caption: Aaron Biber, 89, assesses the damage to his hairdressing salon after riots on Tottenham High Road on August 7, 2011.

[Gillvane]

When you live in a representative democracy like the UK that has a Bill of Rights to protect basic freedoms, IMO, you can never be rioting for freedom.

You have the freedom to persuade people in the market place of ideas to vote for the course of action you believe the country should follow. Losing that battle in the market place of ideas does not mean you are losing your freedom when your basic rights are protected by a Bill of Rights.

Rioters in this situation are just hooligans that have to much time on their hands and want to cause trouble.

If you live in a society that does not have true representative democracy or any sort of Bill of Rights that actually does protect your basic rights, it's an entirely different story. People rioting in Syria have been oppressed by a Dictator for a long time. That's justification for rioting.

[Shaunp007]

I found this picture yesterday and I found it truly upsetting

That photo was heartbreaking. Whomever did that to his shop owes him a total cleanup, pay for loss of business and an apology...when they sober up. Looks like its a bunch of drunk, spoiled mal-contents.

[Daniel Rutter]

Honestly, I hope they cancel their payments and bring back capital punishment for these asshats.

They're getting away with far too much.

[cgbier]

I am in no way defending the rioters - they ARE criminals.

However, it is a bit too easy to stamp them off as such. They are not fighting for some esoteric "freedom". It is simply a social uprising, that has been brewing in the UK (and many other countries) for nearly thirty years. Those folks are the losers of the neo-liberal economics introduced by Mrs. Thatcher in the eighties - people without any outlook for their lives, besides being pacified by welfare checks.
The whole world is sitting right now on a social powder keg - the rich get richer by the day, the poor get poorer. Somewhen this HAS to explode. Shame only that does guys chose the wrong target.

Even though welfare checks are no help to these people - it is not what they want - I'd be strongly arguing against cutting their welfare/pensions. I'd argue to give them some perspectives in their lives. That's what they need. Welfare is more than just money.

[Dr. Benway]

Currently there is a petition going around, started yesterday, to deny all convicted rioters of all state benefits/pensions.

Daniel and George, cut them off completely? Make them feel so alienated that a life of crime to support themselves is their only viable option? Further fuel their rage?

As, cgbier wrote, we need to be getting angry at the rich. Very angry. Their profits come at a huge social and environmental cost.

[paperkut12]

At least it wasn't over a hockey game. Seriously though, It is pretty disgusting the people who take advantage of other people during a riot; at least aim your sights on something that's worth it. Why should we be stealing from each other? That's exactly what they want. Take from the people who deserve to be taken from when they constantly rape people of the things we deserve.

Also, I'm never going to peer down to the comments section of youtube again. I should know better..but man, people are horrible when anonymous (and in general).

[Video Frank]

At least it wasn't over a hockey game.

Too right.

[HD-tography]

At least it wasn't over a hockey game.

Yeah, now THAT would be disgusting... oh wait, it was!

First I've heard of it actually, I actually don't have television (signal, I do own a rather nice Samsung 40" though), I simply choose not to subscribe to rubbish programming, and really haven't the time for all that BS media spin... however there will always be a few bad apples that spoil the whole bunch. Don't judge a country by it's refuse, but rather by the community's response to dealing with it.

[Dr. Benway]

Also, I'm never going to peer down to the comments section of youtube again. I should know better..but man, people are horrible when anonymous (and in general).

Beautiful, paperkut12. I couldn't agree more with how negative and vindictive people are. Reading comments on YouTube is a thing of the past - unless they are constructive comments on a tutorial video.

[Braceface]

I'm not angry at the rich. I'm jealous...

[GeorgeMaier]

Daniel and George, cut them off completely? Make them feel so alienated that a life of crime to support themselves is their only viable option? Further fuel their rage?

As, cgbier wrote, we need to be getting angry at the rich. Very angry. Their profits come at a huge social and environmental cost.

To your first point, i agree this is a possible outcome, but how else can we pay for the damage they caused? The alternative is seizing all of their property and emptying their bank accounts which would leave us with an army of homeless. Out of the options, it is the best.

The rich are taxed more heavily than the poor, I don't understand why we can blame them for any social or environmental damage as they are the people keeping the country going at the end of the day. If we put any more restrictions on the rich they will base their companies overseas and then without them we would be really lost financially.

[Dr. Benway]

The rich are taxed more heavily than the poor, I don't understand why we can blame them for any social or environmental damage as they are the people keeping the country going at the end of the day.

You pay for damage with taxes. Then you sack yourself, scrap the government as it stands and instigate portfolio committees on which sit seven of the best and brightest in each discipline. Seven professors, business people, scientists, social policy analysts, et al, for each government portfolio. They sit on the committee for two years - a requirement by law - deciding the best and most beneficial policies for society. Every two years the committee members are rotated out back into the public and private sector to continue their work and research - it's about the so-called experts putting into practice their opinions; that we so often hear them spouting in T.V. and radio. At least, if we draw from society's best and brightest they will do a better job than a politician who is thrown a portfolio by their party in the expectation they will become a expert on, say, youth issues, in two weeks. An expert at spouting numbers and fielding journalist's questions maybe, but no expert in their portfolio.

No, the rich rarely pay for anything let alone surrender taxes. Though to be clear I am talking about the rich not the merely affluent. The ways in which the rich bend and retard all policies not just social and environmental are well-documented though often hard to find - investigative journalists are deeply involved in this.

[cgbier]

The rich are taxed more heavily than the poor

You have to put that into a relation: It is easier to pay 50% taxes for someone who makes $2,000,000/year than someone who makes $20,000, and, as my tax accountant once told me, "if you make more than a million a year and pay taxes, you are either too stupid or too honest".

as they are the people keeping the country going at the end of the day. If we put any more restrictions on the rich they will base their companies overseas and then without them we would be really lost financially.

There is a huge difference between a rich entrepreneur who provides jobs by owning his OWN company, and actually producing something, to an investor who gets rich by gambling on the stock market, producing nothing while forcing the companies he has shares in to outsource production to low wage countries (even China is outsourcing meanwhile!).... and guess who is going to be richer.

Why do you think interests are that low or social security is privatized in more and more countries? Somewhen in the 70's, the worldwide stock market didn't have anywhere to grow anymore. There simply was not enough cash, so they came to the idea to lower interests to prevent people from saving (to that time the US still had the Glass Seagall Act), so they were forced to put the money into the "market". As this was not enough, the US government came to the idea with the 401k, lobbied into law by the "market". Small investors were only needed for their cash, otherwise, they were (and are) herrings in a shark tank.
Revocation of the Glass Seagal Act in 1999 (it is not Clinton's fault, he didn't have any chance against a Republican majority after Monicagate), provided the "market" with even more monopoly dollars - needed as a lot of "money" was destroyed in the Asian crisis 1997, just in time for the burst of the IT bubble around 2000. Then came the real estate bubble bursting in 2008. This crisis is still ongoing, and even though many middleclass families lost their lifesavings, big banks record record profits again.
As the middleclass was sucked out, the "market" went then to whole countries. Greece was an easy victim - they wanted to be member in the €-zone, but couldn't meet the requirements. Goldman-Sachs helped them to falsify their balance sheets and promised them as much credit as they want with a great rating at Standard & Poors. The bluff flew up, and now whole Europe is paying for Greece's debts.... and they don't pay that money to Greece. Who's the victim? - Guess.

The problem with the modern money market lies in the money itself - called fiat money. There is no actual value behind it, it is made out of nothing. It can only exist because of debts, taxes and interest.

I assume you are from a middle class environment. Ask your mom what'll happen if she looses her job and can't find a new one....


Sorry for my prolonged rambling.

[cgbier]

investigative journalists are deeply involved in this.

...and have to fight against a reputation of being leftist nutcases, terrorists, anarchists or even worse.

[Erik Bien]

If we put any more restrictions on the rich they will base their companies overseas and then without them we would be really lost financially.

This is a favorite meme of the Tea Party here in the US, and I call BS on it. Moving companies offshore? It's called "outsourcing," and they're already doing it, whether we continue to reward them with tax cuts, restrictions on organized labor, etc. or not. If our governments really wanted to incentivize domestic job creation, they'd offer to lower taxes for those companies that don't outsource, and make the unpatriotic profiteers pay their fair share.

Yes, we need to curb spending as well, but don't forget we're in this mess largely because our last president started two wars off the books, created a huge unfunded payout to the pharmaceutical industry (Medicare Part B) and bailed out the banksters responsible for the current financial crisis. We gave them a mulligan, and still they resist regulation and oversight, and aren't extending the credit necessary to pull us out of the housing slump. Don't even get me started on the infallible prognosticators at Standard & Poors: they also had Bear Stearns rated AAA, right until the day they went bankrupt!

We have plenty of programs originally designed to help those genuinely in need which have since been exploited by the least deserving (in the US, most farm subsidies now go to the very agribusiness conglomerates they were meant to "protect" family farmers against). We've "privatized" our hospitals, our prison systems, even many aspects of our military, with the inevitable results of worse service, with less oversight and responsibility, at higher costs.

There's more than enough fat to trim before we even think about union busting, kicking working families out of their homes and turning off little old ladies' heat in winter.

[cgbier]

Talking about taxation of the rich: There was a case in Germany against four investigators with the German tax office. They were able to recover several millions in outstanding taxes from some rich folks. Result: They were taken off duty, because of, officially, mental problems. Consensus: They were not supposed to go after the fat cats, but after shop keepers, bar owners, the muffler service at the corner,....

Watch some of the end time movies from the eighties - Mad Max or Max Headroom, or read Orwell. You'll find a lot of parallels. I'm glad that I'm getting old and will be kicking the bucket in some 20 years, but I don't envy the youth for their future.

[GeorgeMaier]

I'm watching the live parliament meeting at the moment - They are in promotion of taking full compensation from the criminals regardless of the wealth of any criminal individual.

[cgbier]

They should take full compensation from the folks who are really responsible for that whole issue. Forget about the politicians - they are in the pockets of the "market" - they won't have a workable solution to resolve the social unrest.

[GeorgeMaier]

The people who are really responsible are the rioters. There's no getting around this, they had no just reason to act in the way that they did. I have had to walk my sister home from work every night this week because criminals have made the streets unsafe. It's time to get a firmer hand on the criminals who are causing the problem. Britain is a haven. People who don't respect that are welcome to move to any other European country without any hassle at all. The joys of being in the EU.

There's no point in blaming anyone but the criminals because they are such a minority. So many people are in such worse conditions and remain functioning and productive members of society.

[cgbier]

remain functioning and productive members of society.

You see - this is the problem. What defines a functioning member of society? What is the productive part? If they aren't productive, how will you get them there? Productive in what way?

As I said, I don't defend the individual, but I understand the underlying problem, and I'm amazed that this has happened already years ago.

[cgbier]

As I said, George, and please don't get me wrong on that, you grew up in a somewhat protected middle class environment. You had the chance to get an A level (if that is the right term for the UK) education, and will go of to college soon (I'm assuming here). You will study for a career, and somewhen will have a, hopefully, well paying job in this career. You will marry somewhen, have kids, buy a house, .... you are pretty much settled, I hope. But think what will happen if your mom loses her job. She won't be able to find a new one. All you dreams of college/uni are wet dreams. You won't have any real, formal education. You will have to compete for a factory job. How many are there still? What are you gonna do?
You are a well groomed young man (based on your posts here), but think what is gonna happen if your girl friend gets pregnant. You don't have a job, you live in welfare housing. Your kid is going to grow up in that environment, from day one, bombarded with consumerism. You are not able to buy him/her, what his/her well-to-do classmates are wearing.... You won't riot against your situation, but your kid, or his/her kid, might.

The situation the rioters are in socially is what psychologists call "learned helplessness". They know they aren't able to get out of their social quagmire. They get used to it. They know they are losers, and don't care anymore to get out of it. Somewhen, however, some of them build up steam, and somewhen this steam becomes a critical mass - all it needs is a little ignitor to lead to an explosion. And this is exactly what is happening know.
Did the cops ever honestly investigate if the guy was NOT killed in self defense? I think if your government would come out into the open and say, "yes, the cops killed that guy... we are sorry" would help more to ease the riot than any fascist measure they are discussing now.

Think back to the New York black out 1977 (or so), the Rodney King Riots, or you might remember New Orleans during Katrina. More or the less small incidents triggered riots and looting.
Think back what has happened in northern Africa this year? The western media wanted to spin this into an uprising against dictators, fights for democratic freedom... the folks rioting were economically desperate, with no perspectives in their lives. They gave as much of a lalala on democracy in their country as your government gives.

[cgbier]

There;s an interesting interview on German public TV on that issue. Run it through babblefish. That guy talks sense.

[cgbier]

Cameron is thinking of mobilizing the army. We better call the NATO to bomb the UK. Wasn't that the reason for Libya - army against the own people?