Best Canon Model to replace an HV-20?

[MovieBlog]

Can someone point me to the best place to learn about the latest Canon models and the various difference? Or better yet, can someone review my needs and suggest the best replacement for an HV-20?

I've been using an HV-20 for several years but recently I've been having problems with the capture process. The Firewire output blew out and I've been using a Haupepauge HD-PVR to capture into AVC-HD format video via component cables since then. I'm looking for a replacement but haven't been following the Canon models since (or any other manufacturers for that matter).

I'm looking for a decent HD camcorder with the best workflow for getting video off the camcorder, on to a PC, edited and then uploaded/sent to friends or archived for personal use. For the camcorder itself, my wife likes a viewfinder and I like using the flipout screen. We do a mixture of light levels from indoor to outdoor, so low-level comparable to the HV-20 (or better) is desired. I've always worked with a wide-angle lens added to the HV-20 since I found the standard viewing to be too narrow. If any of the newer models have a wider view, that would be great, but I can always add a new one.

For storage, on-board and/or added SD cards would be best. I supposed a hard-disk could be an option, but not required. In the past, for a long vacation we needed about 5 HDV tapes (e.g. 5 hours) and I'm not sure what that equates to in memory or additional SD cards.

We don't use the camcorder for still pictures. I'd like the option to add an external microphone, but if the built-in one is good, we'd probably choose that first. We seem to get a lot of wind noise when using the HV-20 outdoors; not sure if the newer models have fixed that or not.

Budget-wise, I'd rather not break the bank, but I also want something easy to use and that we can keep for as long (or longer) than we've had the HV-20. I'm thinking around $1000. Most of what we film is just family stuff so we aren't looking for professional grade.

Currently I have a quad-core 32-bit computer, that I plan to replace also. I'd ask more about video editing software updates, but I don't want to ask too much in the same thread. If it matters though, I've been doing a lot just with Windows Movie Maker (usually requiring an additional conversion to .wmv format) or Sony Vegas Pro 8.0 or After Effects. I was toying with the idea of getting Adobe Premiere and After Effects CS 5.5.

So with all that in mind, can someone help clarify the options and make some concrete recommendations?

[ejolson]

The HFM41 is the nearest thing to an HV20 without tape. The HFM41 has a viewfinder, similar resolution sensor, same field of view, same thread size for wide angle adapter, same requirement for 24psf pulldown and similar price. Advantages are improved placement of the on-board microphones and low light performance. Disadvantages are different batteries and a touch screen interface.

For double the price you might like the HFG10, which adds native 24p and a wider field of view without a wide angle adapter. Disadvantages are less range on the telephoto side.

[Flozem]

Don't forget the HF S21.... it's bound to get cheaper now the HF G10 is available.

[Daniel Rutter]

HF S21

Very good little camera, we use these at the film school next to the 5D's and they have a fair amount of manual control considering...

[MovieBlog]

Thanks for the information with details on the differences. Seems like the HFS21 has a 64GB built-in flash drive which is closer to my desired capacity, but I could also do that with a couple additional SD cards. I'll have to go figure out the difference between SDHC and SDXC now since the older model doesn't appear to have SDXC support.

I'm puzzled by the video resolution specs though. For example, is an 8.59 Megapixel video resolution better or worse than a 2.37 Megapixel video resolution? My initial thought was bigger is better, but if the HD standard is 1920x1080, are those extra pixels any use? I heard that the higher resolution is better for stills but there is a tradeoff in low-light performance. Is that correct?

Also, one of the replies mentioned the touchscreen as a drawback. Care to clarify? Is it just an awkward interface? Or do your fingers get in the way of the screen? I certainly got used to the little thumbstick interface on the HV20 and found it very easy to use. Are you saying the touchscreen is gimmicky?

[drapeama]

Very good little camera, we use these at the film school next to the 5D's and they have a fair amount of manual control considering...

I think the HF S21 is the AVCHD model that replace directly the HV40.
The specs are pratically the same (about features) and the HF S21 even has a LANc connection, which is something I really miss from my Old Sony TRV340...Plus, the manual focus dial ring is just great, better than on the HV imho.

[drapeama]

Seems like the HFS21 has a 64GB built-in flash drive which is closer to my desired capacity, but I could also do that with a couple additional SD cards.

I think, if I remember correctly that it has 2 slots for SD cards, each slot can handle up to 32GB so you'd be able to use basically up to 128GB of memory, everything combined.

[ejolson]

The HFS21 is a hybrid designed to shoot high resolution stills as well as video. However, its 8.59 MP sensor yields poor low light performance and aliasing in the video image. For video I would recommend the HFM4xx series or the HFG10 instead. The Panasonic TM900 is also a good choice.

[drapeama]

However, its 8.59 MP sensor yields poor low light performance and aliasing in the video image.

Dumb question, but how come a higher MP sensor can give worst results that a smaller one? It has pretty much the same size of sensor than the HV (1/2.6 vs 1/2.7) only the MP that changes...anyone has a good answer?
I know about the aliasing with DSLR: the bigger the sensor the most lines that are skipped to achieve the resolution...strange though.
I miss these olds CCD camcorder without still functions...anyway.

[omnibozo]

In March I DP'd and directed a live action video game shoot (Relics. Subdued Software) with a brand new HFS21. I liked a lot of things about it. Didn't have any low light problems, though we did light for exposure that could be adjusted in post where needed (it's a horror adventure game). I wasn't fond of the touch screen. Took significant pressure to activate, which meant a firm backing with the fingers of the other hand while navigating and setting things. Tricky, as sometimes we were shooting plates for ghost effects in post. Used a Juiced Link with NTG2 and a Sennheiser wireless. Sound combo worked fine. Yes, there are two SDHC card slots as well as the large internal flash memory. Could shoot for probably 35-40 hours without dumping! Anyone up for the next Russian Ark?

[drapeama]

Could shoot for probably 35-40 hours without dumping! Anyone up for the next Russian Ark?

How about batteries then?

[MovieBlog]

The HFS21 is a hybrid designed to shoot high resolution stills as well as video. However, its 8.59 MP sensor yields poor low light performance and aliasing in the video image. For video I would recommend the HFM4xx series or the HFG10 instead. The Panasonic TM900 is also a good choice.

Well, to update this thread, I finally opted for the TM900. I waited to see what was going to happen at CES and also to see what price drops would happen on the TM900. When it dropped to $598 at B&H, I bought it. I've also purchased a new adapter ring so I can use the same wide-angle lens as before.

I'm enjoying the manual option ring. I'm able to achieve a shallower DOF opening up the iris and zooming slightly then using the ring for a manual focus.

Thanks to everyone that replied here.

[Lou van Wijhe]

The HFM41 is the nearest thing to an HV20 without tape. The HFM41 has a viewfinder, similar resolution sensor, ...

I'm a bit late in responding as the OP has already made a decision but the most remarkable difference with the HV20 is that the HF M41 does NOT have a "similar resolution sensor". Look here. I have both and the difference in PQ is huge, especially in low light. The low light sensitivity of the M41 (and other models with this sensor) is much higher than that of the TM900.

Lou

[ejolson]

Nice link. It indicates the spacing between pixels on the sensor of the HF41 is 2.75 microns and the spacing between pixels on the sensor of the HV20 is also 2.75 microns. As you have noted the picture quality of the HF41 is better than the HV20. This is because the sensor was improved in ways other than increasing the resolution.

The TM900 at $600 is a great price and a much fuller featured camera. Congratulations!

[Lou van Wijhe]

The sensors are different sizewise. The foto diodes in the hd cmos pro sensor are 61% larger than those in the sensor of the HV20 and therefore more sensitive, giving a higher dynamic range and better low light pictures.

Of course, there are other considerations in choosing a camera and Panasonic does make excellent ones.

Lou

[Bif]

Dumb question, but how come a higher MP sensor can give worst results that a smaller one? It has pretty much the same size of sensor than the HV (1/2.6 vs 1/2.7) only the MP that changes...anyone has a good answer?

Not really a dumb question.

Many of the higher MP count sensors wind up with smaller "photo sites" to get more of them "packed" onto the sensor. The smaller ones are less sensitive to light and give poorer lower light performance. With some of their recent camcorders Canon has reduced the MP count to exactly what is needed for the 1920x1080 matrix and are able to use larger "photo sites" which deliver much better low light performance.

Bruce Foreman

[jet]

Dont get manafactuar blinded i dont own either but have used the TM900 and M41 and the TM wins it has a lot higher resolution in most conditions,indoors in low light it cant match the g10 but not by the huge amount some say.

[jet]

Why film in the dark though my GH2 with a fast lens can but i very rarely do.

[Mark G]

Did anyone mention the Canon XA10? It's a great little camera. Outstanding video. Nice transition from the HVxx line as there are many similarities. You could also go with the Canon G10 as well.