Another Red camera model goes the way of the dodo bird...

[Halsu]

We weren't talking about Scarlet, but Epic. It's out there right now, making it's effect as we discuss here...

Seems like Vincent Laforet of 5D MKII fame just bought one:

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/

[1]

It's still revolutionary.

The Alexa?
Or the unavailable Scarlet?

Not a bad slogan though: "SCARLET, the IMAGINARY Revolution!"

[Duke]

But in the other hand, there's still nothing that competes with Scarlet in the sub $ 50 000 range from any of the other manufacturers

You have a lot of faith in a company that has proven you wrong again and again.

I think anything that's produced now beats anything that's not produced now. You can only compare two things produced at the same time. Scarlet isn't one of them at this time. Red has eliminated three proposed products already and added another proposed one.

Its been a marketing ploy of Red from the beginning to compare what they might produce in the future to what was produced by the other companies in the past. It makes Red seem better than it is.

Epic, great camera from what I hear. Can't afford it.
Red MX, great camera. Can't afford it.

FS100 - quasi revolutionary. $5k full S35 sensor, sees in the dark.
F3 - Quasi revolutionary - a baby Alexa upgradable to 4.4.4.

Scarlet = someday maybe.

When Red actually sells something I can afford then talk to me. In the mean time they are selling sizzle, not steak.

[Halsu]

You have a lot of faith in a company that has proven you wrong again and again.

With schedules, they suck. But with gear, they rock. I like it this way rather than the opposite.

I think anything that's produced now beats anything that's not produced now. You can only compare two things produced at the same time. Scarlet isn't one of them at this time.

Well it exists indeed, even though it's not available to us mortals.

Red has eliminated three proposed products already and added another proposed one.

I'd like to have a shot at the mushrooms you take, must be cool there in the alternate universe ;-)

But nope, they have not, as far as i can tell they haven't eliminated anything. All their announced cameras have changed from the early specs, but none of them is discontinued.

Its been a marketing ploy of Red from the beginning to compare what they might produce in the future to what was produced by the other companies in the past. It makes Red seem better than it is.

Red One has been out there for years, and it's still unmatched by anyone else in the sub $ 100K range.

That's a good evaluation point i think, how do the competitor's newest products compare to Red's four year old camera?

Epic, great camera from what I hear. Can't afford it.

Me neither. I'll be renting it occasionally though.

Red MX, great camera. Can't afford it.

Me neither. I have been renting it occasionally though.

FS100 - quasi revolutionary. $5k full S35 sensor, sees in the dark.

Yep, a nice one. But not much more specs wise than the DSLR:s.

F3 - Quasi revolutionary - a baby Alexa upgradable to 4.4.4.

...yep, though it's in the same rough "unnaffordable by us" ballpark as Red One, to which it loses in all aspects...

Scarlet = someday maybe.

Someday, likely.

When Red actually sells something I can afford then talk to me. In the mean time they are selling sizzle, not steak.

They sell Red One and Epix-M.

[Halsu]

The Alexa?
Or the unavailable Scarlet?

Not a bad slogan though: "SCARLET, the IMAGINARY Revolution!"

I replied to "If the 3k for $3k had come out when they talked about it, it may have been revolutionary." so take a wild guess ;-)

[Duke]

Well it exists indeed, even though it's not available to us mortals.

We can't shoot a movie with 'exists but isn't available'.

But nope, they have not, as far as i can tell they haven't eliminated anything. All their announced cameras have changed from the early specs, but none of them is discontinued.

That's obfuscation. Or are you still planing on buying a 3k for $3k? Or that the Epic lite is the scarlet S35 even though the electronics, price and specs have all changed?

Red One has been out there for years, and it's still unmatched by anyone else in the sub $ 100K range.

You've never heard me say the Red One was anything less than good to great. I'm not a fan of the work flow, but in the right hands it can be great. No doubt. I don't think resolution tells stories though, and in a lot of peoples opinions the Alexa is great (and less than $100k by a long shot.) Red is unmatched in resolution, but color-wise, I prefer the Alexa.

That's a good evaluation point i think, how do the competitor's newest products compare to Red's four year old camera?

And it only took them the first 2-3 years to get the software right. LOL Again though we're talking about something affordable like the proposed Scarlet.

Yep, a nice one. But not much more specs wise than the DSLR:s.

Spec-wise a DSLR should be great. Image-wise, not so great. The FS100 has true HDMI out, full picture profiles, less aliasing and moire, no 12 minute limit, etc.

...yep, though it's in the same rough "unnaffordable by us" ballpark as Red One, to which it loses in all aspects...

Well since a Red One body is now about $25k and really about $38-$40k to properly outfit, and an F3 body is ~$13.5k and really about $20k to outfit its about half the price. Not at the same price point at all.

Since mere mortals do stretch on occasion and buy two EX1's they could also get one F3. Especially since many of the accessories are transferable (batteries, media, etc.) And when you compare the rental of a Red One for very long, you've got the price of your F3.

They sell Red One and Epic-M.

Yep, but not to guys like you and me.

[Halsu]

That's obfuscation. Or are you still planing on buying a 3k for $3k?

I'm still planning to buý a 3K RAW fixed zoom camera. The price has doubled, but it's still a steal in my opinion.

Or that the Epic lite is the scarlet S35 even though the electronics, price and specs have all changed?

Yep, it is, it fits the same slot in their lineup. Just like the small Scarlets got upgraded to use HDR, so did the S35.

Red is unmatched in resolution, but color-wise, I prefer the Alexa.

I've done post with both, and i can get the image i want from both color / dynamic range wise. Even if Alexa has 1-2 stops more measured latitude, i've never noticed the difference in practice.

And it only took them the first 2-3 years to get the software right. LOL Again though we're talking about something affordable like the proposed Scarlet.

I guess that's one thing that makes us different - i actually LIKE beta testing, and i don't mind working with not-yet-perfected tools, be that hard- or software.

Spec-wise a DSLR should be great. Image-wise, not so great. The FS100 has true HDMI out, full picture profiles, less aliasing and moire, no 12 minute limit, etc.

Yep.

Well since a Red One body is now about $25k and really about $38-$40k to properly outfit, and an F3 body is ~$13.5k and really about $20k to outfit its about half the price. Not at the same price point at all.

That depends on what you mean by a proper outfit... 40k Red is a different beast from a 20k F3. But my point was, bot are out of average user's price range.

Since mere mortals do stretch on occasion and buy two EX1's they could also get one F3.

...and also a Red One. Many have.

Yep, but not to guys like you and me.

Oh, they do. Both are for sale at Red online store. All we are missing is the dough ;-)

[Duke]

For EX1 owners with a 35mm adapter the media, batteries and lenses are all transferable. For me that means a full outfitted F3 for less than $14k with S-Log.

[Halsu]

For EX1 owners with a 35mm adapter the media, batteries and lenses are all transferable. For me that means a full outfitted F3 for less than $14k with S-Log.

So, you got the Ex1 etc. for free then??

;-)

[Duke]

So, you got the Ex1 etc. for free then??

;-)

Sure I paid for the accessories. But there are a lot of EX1s and EX3s out there and lots of people will be able to transfer them. (Note: I did say "for me".)

Buy a Red and you can't transfer the batteries, cards, remote, etc. They have flimsy non standard mini XLRs, etc. You ought to be able to use your HD Monitor though at one time there were certain brands that were incompatible. (They may have fixed that by now. I don't know.)

My point was that when you buy a Red you have to buy a certain amount of accessories. The true cost is significantly higher than buying the brain.

Now the Scarlet fixed won't have those costs, but it won't have the capabilities either. An 8x zoom is pretty limited. With a 2/3" sensor you can create shallow DOF with a longer lens. You can't with a fixed Scarlet.

[Halsu]

With a 2/3" sensor you can create shallow DOF with a longer lens. You can't with a fixed Scarlet.

Depends on the definition of "shallow". In my experience, at the focal lengths that are practical for most shooting (which fixed Scarlet covers plenty), f2.4 gives enough of the "shallow look" for my taste with a 2/3" sensor in a vast majority of cases. It's the same as shooting with S35 at f5,6 to f8 range, which is quite common in feature films.

[Dr. Benway]

...the best part was her cooking. lol

Yes, great cooking. I am an ex-chef and like many we get rusty very quick - it's a pleasure to have her cook and she genuinely enjoys it. Yep, first kid too. Off to the hospital for an ultrasound tomorrow - four weeks to go. Nice.

[Duke]

Depends on the definition of "shallow". In my experience, at the focal lengths that are practical for most shooting (which fixed Scarlet covers plenty), f2.4 gives enough of the "shallow look" for my taste with a 2/3" sensor in a vast majority of cases. It's the same as shooting with S35 at f5,6 to f8 range, which is quite common in feature films.

I agree that f2.8 on the 2/3" is about the same dof control as f8 on the S35. Also, most films are shot f5.6 to f8, but that's when they don't want particularly shallow DOF, just a film look.

The problem is with the Scarlet fixed is that you're then stuck. If you want to emphasize something more than that you can't. Its not that much bigger than and EX1 sensor, but the lens is a lot shorter. Its too short a lens for that sensor. The Scarlet fixed will be able to do what you want a significant portion of the time if you work at it. But in other ways its going to be limiting.

Resolution doesn't tell stories, but DOF control can help to tell them by conveying emphasis.

BTW, I did pull the trigger on an F3. The baby Alexa tag really is deserved.

[Gillvane]

I agree that f2.8 on the 2/3" is about the same dof control as f8 on the S35. Also, most films are shot f5.6 to f8, but that's when they don't want particularly shallow DOF, just a film look.

The problem is with the Scarlet fixed is that you're then stuck. If you want to emphasize something more than that you can't. Its not that much bigger than and EX1 sensor, but the lens is a lot shorter. Its too short a lens for that sensor. The Scarlet fixed will be able to do what you want a significant portion of the time if you work at it. But in other ways its going to be limiting.

Resolution doesn't tell stories, but DOF control can help to tell them by conveying emphasis.

BTW, I did pull the trigger on an F3. The baby Alexa tag really is deserved.

Can you please post some F3 footage with a Noir look, lots of deep black shadows? Not low light, I've see that already.

[Duke]

Can you please post some F3 footage with a Noir look, lots of deep black shadows? Not low light, I've see that already.

Why would I want to? That look is an exercise in planning and post, not camera capability. With a Red, F3 or even film you're going to want to have a bright light from the side controlled with barn doors to avoid spill, then in post punch up the contrast.

Of course you can crush your blacks, but then if it goes too far, or its too noisy, you're stuck with it.

FWIW, the line I heard Roger Corman say was "The cheapest special effect is a line of dialog."

[Halsu]

I agree that f2.8 on the 2/3" is about the same dof control as f8 on the S35. Also, most films are shot f5.6 to f8, but that's when they don't want particularly shallow DOF, just a film look.

Scarlet is f2.4, not f2.8, so that gives it about half a stop more shallowness. On the other hand, EX1 is f1.9, so that gives it half a stop back. The difference between the two probably isn't big in practice, about half a stop to a stop advance for Scarlet. This said, i've been pretty happy with what i get with EX1. There's more to images than DoF.

Scarlet definitely is not the camera for someone obsessed with shallow dof.

[Duke]

I think we both agree that extreme shallow DOF is overused. It should only be used to make a point or convey something special. Some guys think they need to make an entire move with a shallow DOF.

And I like the EX1 for its versatility. Run and gun, ENG and still capable of DOF control. 3 chips, solid state, lots of control. Its a great camera and was ahead of its time. I think it just compliments the F3, especially with the work flow. What I can get rid of is the Letus Extreme with EX1 optimized achromat.

I just gave up waiting for the Scarlet... last year. I have movies to make.

[Halsu]

I think we both agree that extreme shallow DOF is overused.

Word.

And I like the EX1 for its versatility. Run and gun, ENG and still capable of DOF control.

It's been my favorite too.

I just gave up waiting for the Scarlet... last year. I have movies to make.

I'm still waiting for scarled, but i haven't slowed down a single bit while i wait when it comes to making moving images.

Like always, i shoot with whatever suits the job, be that my own HV20, or rented EX1, 2/3" broadcast camera, Red One or 5DMKII or whatnot. And that's what i will do in the future too - Scarlet will be my replacement for HV20 as the camera i own, and as such it will replace a wider spectrum of rental gear than HV20 does (hopefully slowly paying for itself in 2-3 years), but i'll still be renting i.e. larger sensor cameras for the jobs that require them.

[Duke]

Scarlet will be my replacement for HV20 as the camera i own, and as such it will replace a wider spectrum of rental gear than HV20 does (hopefully slowly paying for itself in 2-3 years), but i'll still be renting i.e. larger sensor cameras for the jobs that require them.

I can appreciate that strategy, however three rentals and you've often paid the price of a new camera. (I don't do commercials or shorts.) Why not buy a camera, use it and rent it out, then you get to keep it?

Did you see the SCCE shoot out? 12 cameras (Alexa, film, F35, Red, AF100, Sony F3, Phantom Flex, Weisscam HS-2, Canon 1D MkIV, 7D, 5D Mk II, and Nikon D7000) A snippet of it is here:
http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-came...11/episode-one
(Note: you can't be behind a proxy and see it. You have to direct access.)

They had 140 camera and support crew who were experts in each of the cameras and scientifically tested most of the big chip cameras. They didn't draw conclusions just gathered the results. Zaccuto made a documentary that will be out later on blu-ray. They are just starting to release results.

Alexa was the winner in most people's opinion. Red MX won on resolution of course. Red wouldn't let an Epic participate even after Epic's release. (Which causes me to wonder.) Jim Janard specified how he wanted the Red MX set up.

Barry Green, the Panasonic guru, said this "The F3 looked excellent in the SCCE tests, it was frequently mentioned in the same breaths as the Alexa, it blew the F35 into the weeds, and it was all done without s-log." Now beating an F35 is really something. As I recall an F35 costs six figures.

I thought this was interesting "film actually has phenomenal highlight detail, but isn’t actually that good in the shadow detail."

"The F35, for example, didn't fare nearly as well as I expected, the F3 pretty much handed it it's butt on a silver platter. The Red MX did pretty well, definitely besting the F35 and most of the others, and dominated in resolution. The Alexa stole the show. It was just astounding. It was dominant and to my eyes the clear winner, and everyone I spoke to agreed. Just no comparison. And film? Well, that was one of the disappointments. Film just didn't dominate. Always good, but (except for res) the Alexa was always as good or better. The F3 did extremely well. The f3 was indeed a baby Alexa."

Still waiting for full results of course but the F3 and Red MX had about the same DR. With S-Log the F3 will have at least another stop of DR to go with that extremely good signal to noise ratio, -63db.

[Duke]

Scarlet will be my replacement for HV20 as the camera i own, and as such it will replace a wider spectrum of rental gear than HV20 does (hopefully slowly paying for itself in 2-3 years), but i'll still be renting i.e. larger sensor cameras for the jobs that require them.

I can appreciate that strategy, however three rentals and you've often paid the price of a new camera. (I don't do commercials or shorts.) Why not buy a camera, use it and rent it out, then you get to keep it?

Did you see the SCCE shoot out? 12 cameras (Alexa, film, F35, Red, AF100, Sony F3, Phantom Flex, Weisscam HS-2, Canon 1D MkIV, 7D, 5D Mk II, and Nikon D7000)
http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-came...11/episode-one
(Note: you can't be behind a proxy and see it. You have to direct access.)

They had 140 camera and support crew who were experts in each of the cameras and scientifically tested most of the big chip cameras. They didn't draw conclusions just gathered the results. Zaccuto made a documentary that will be out later on blu-ray. They are just starting to release results.

Alexa was the winner in most people's opinion. Red MX won on resolution of course. Red wouldn't let an Epic participate even after Epic's release. (Which causes me to wonder.) Jim Janard specified how he wanted the Red MX set up.

Barry Green, the Panasonic guru, said this "The F3 looked excellent in the SCCE tests, it was frequently mentioned in the same breaths as the Alexa, it blew the F35 into the weeds, and it was all done without s-log." Now beating an F35 is really something. As I recall an F35 costs six figures.

I thought this was interesting "film actually has phenomenal highlight detail, but isn’t actually that good in the shadow detail."

"The F35, for example, didn't fare nearly as well as I expected, the F3 pretty much handed it it's butt on a silver platter. The Red MX did pretty well, definitely besting the F35 and most of the others, and dominated in resolution. The Alexa stole the show. It was just astounding. It was dominant and to my eyes the clear winner, and everyone I spoke to agreed. Just no comparison. And film? Well, that was one of the disappointments. Film just didn't dominate. Always good, but (except for res) the Alexa was always as good or better. The F3 did extremely well. The f3 was indeed a baby Alexa."

Still waiting for full results of course but the F3 and Red MX had about the same DR. With S-Log the F3 will have at least another stop of DR to go with that extremely good signal to noise ratio, -63db.

[Gillvane]

Seems like Vincent Laforet of 5D MKII fame just bought one:

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2011/...c-5k-and-hdrx/

It's pretty stunning looking footage.

[Dr. Benway]

The reality is that affordable 35mm-look cameras are far too compelling

I agree, and couple that with an engaging story and beautiful/careful lighting choices...

[PoolboyFilms]

Hey. I am living in a small seaside town in Chonburi, Thailand. Chonburi is 90 minutes drive from Bangkok. Close enough for regular visits but without the pollution. Thailand's fun and challenging. As a New Zealand expat teacher I get to work with plenty of Australians, Americans, and Brits - it's a lot of fun.

Life here is very easy for expats, though I do take my work seriously, which is sometimes stressful. And it can be dangerous for those who get too mixed-up in the nightlife and with too many women.

I'm in pre-production with my students - we are about to make a ghost story (their choice, a Thai preoccupation) - which I am currently writing a screenplay for. No storyboarding (don't have the time), straight into directing on the spot after a period of script familiarisation.

But yeah, life is cool here. I have a baby on the way in about another four weeks, and we're just trucking along.

Whenever I get back from visiting Thailand, people (Americans) ask me, "How was Taiwan?"

[MrMicah]

So you can answer ... Well, its a bit different to here in Southern Canada.