Another Red camera model goes the way of the dodo bird...

[Duke]

The 3k for $3k is long gone.

The S35 is gone. (Yes the Epic-M came into existence, but with different specs and a different chassis. The Epic-M is really a new model.)

Now the interchangeable 2/3" is gone.

In a live feed with Ted from Red, he answered a bunch of questions (good news about Epic BTW, the read speeds are drastically faster so the rolling shutter is about half of the Red One) But.. he said the 2/3 interchangeable is not slated anymore.

This will be a devastating blow to a lot of small indie film makers. Oh and all those people that bought up 16mm (2/3") cinema lenses. Ouch!

[Daniel Rutter]

Are you really surpised that they've cancelled these? They're becoming a big company, screw indie film makers... they make more money from Red-one and Epic-M purchases and rentals.

[Duke]

This just another big disappointment to those Red fanbois that have waited for years to get their favorite version of a Scarlet at an affordable price. (In certain circumstances there are advantages of a 2/3" sensor over an S35 sensor.) Now its scarlet fixed or Epic-M in S35.

I contrast that with Sony's multi-tiered price point approach. Since you can think of S-Log as RAW-Lite that gives a few more stops of DR similar to xHDR in the Epic, I think the smartest thing Sony did was release the F3 to retail at $13,300 (great sensor and easy work flow) with an upgrade to S-Log and 4.4.4 rather than buying a new camera if you need extra DR and color.

The Scarlet fixed has some serious limitations. How many more indie film makers are now going to say 'screw Red' in return?

[Gillvane]

Would I like to shoot with an Epic? Well, yes I would. Is that gonna happen anytime soon? Probably not.

I dont' think anyone should wait around any longer for affordable Red cameras. Either they are in your budget, or you should look at alternatives.

This NEXFS-100 looks plenty good enough for your indie film, and it does cost anything close to what an Epic will:

http://vimeo.com/22491707

[Gillvane]

The Scarlet fixed has some serious limitations. How many more indie film makers are now going to say 'screw Red' in return?

True, but it still has a very nice fixed lens, and a good sensor. I think you could still make some great images with it.

[Halsu]

The 3k for $3k is long gone.

The S35 is gone. (Yes the Epic-M came into existence, but with different specs and a different chassis. The Epic-M is really a new model.)

They're not gone, they have evolved.

Now the interchangeable 2/3" is gone.

Where exactly did you hear this, are you sure you got it right? There's no mention in the red or scarlet forums, one would assume that this kind of an announcement would be a pretty hot topic over there?

[Duke]

It was an interview with Ted, the representative of Red, that usually goes around demonstrating the Scarlet camera. I know you've seen his videos.

I didn't look at Reduser, but it did come up on Scarletuser, followed by a lot of speculation about what he really meant. It was funny because by the end they concluded what he meant (without anything to base it on) was about the opposite of what Ted actually said.

You can argue about that with Red as they should be responsible for their own representatives. Besides its "subject to change" therefore their announcements don't really mean anything.

[dop16mm]

RED is long past looking out for the little guy. The current product line is aimed squarely at equipping digital 3D studio productions. The fixed lens scarlet seems perfect for this. There are many that believe that the deep focus 2/3" format is better for 3d, and software controllable matching lenses will make rigs even smaller. I would have liked an interchangeable scarlet to use my vintage 16mm glass, but I'll probably settle for a GH2, which gets me a large and small sensor in the same package.

The reality is that affordable 35mm-look cameras are far too compelling, even at high compression ratio's, it is good enough for most screens a small film would ever make it to. Of what's available now, the FS100 seem to be the most indie friendly rig out there. Low light sensitivity allows for lighting with small indie friendly lights, and can still look good. The kit lens would work in most situations where you don't need super shallow look, moving shots, etc, probably supports followfocus via lanc. Stripped down with the 16mm pancake it would work on hand-held stabilizers.

Sadly without added grain 16mm - 2/3" just looks like video. I recently watched Mildred Pierce on HBO, and thought just that. I love 16mm, but part of that is the grain. Clean 2/3" digital just doesn't cut it.

[Halsu]

The rumors of the death of the Cinema Scarlet seem to be premature: from cine gear expo a few days ago -

http://twitpic.com/572hrr

[antman]

I could care less, 2/3rds, it's absolutly useless to me for the way I shoot. If I want deep focus, I throw on a wide and stop it down a few clicks, no big deal. It's just a matter of a month or two before they announce there will be no scarlet 2/3rds fixed either. Anyone that waited and still does for these guys to deliver is a dumb ass! straight up!

They got their ass handed to them by Sony. Sony was smart enough not to try and reinvent the wheel. They just took whats available and pieced it to together. And guess what?? They were able to produce several affordable camera that exist, and are for sale, for people to use. MY GOD, THE CONCEPT OF THAT. Imagine a company delivers a product ONTIME, WAIT The FS 100 was early. WOW, That sends a shiver down my spine. Seriously though, The funniest part is they tried to be so technically superior and unique, it totally backfired and now look at them, Nothing for sale, and they look like dicks.

Now here comes the "well they just sold a bunch of epics, blah blah blah, and more fukin blahhh. WHO cares, it still has no bearing on me what so ever. Why, because I cant afford it, second, for internet, epic really isn't necessary. The Canons do just fine for this medium. I dont need 120 frames a second, Besides ultra slow motion is annoying after two or three seconds regardless.

[Dr. Benway]

IThe funniest part is they tried to be so technically superior and unique, it totally backfired and now look at them, Nothing for sale, and they look like dicks.

Why, because I cant afford it, second, for internet, epic really isn't necessary.

Bit of a fetish camera isn't it? And yeah, the Internet. Can't wait for 5D MKIII to arrive then I might be able to afford a MKII and slum around with THAT for a few years.

[antman]

@Dr.Benway, Whats it like living in Tiawan? Are you an american? do you teach there? just curious. I find it fascinating that your living there. Seems like an amazing place.

[Dr. Benway]

@Dr.Benway, Whats it like living in Tiawan?

Hey. I am living in a small seaside town in Chonburi, Thailand. Chonburi is 90 minutes drive from Bangkok. Close enough for regular visits but without the pollution. Thailand's fun and challenging. As a New Zealand expat teacher I get to work with plenty of Australians, Americans, and Brits - it's a lot of fun.

Life here is very easy for expats, though I do take my work seriously, which is sometimes stressful. And it can be dangerous for those who get too mixed-up in the nightlife and with too many women.

I'm in pre-production with my students - we are about to make a ghost story (their choice, a Thai preoccupation) - which I am currently writing a screenplay for. No storyboarding (don't have the time), straight into directing on the spot after a period of script familiarisation.

But yeah, life is cool here. I have a baby on the way in about another four weeks, and we're just trucking along.

[antman]

sweet, congrats on the bambino. Is it your first? If so, boy are you in for a change. (mostly for the better, but the sleep deprivation is a bitch, I had twins, so it was double duty. lol

Sounds a lot like the production we recently wrapped where I teach. Lots of fun to see kids grow into promising young filmmakers. And to sit back and think" I taught them that". Very rewarding it is. Maybe sometime I will get the opportunity to go to thailand. I did date I lady from there when I was in my twenties, the best part was her cooking. lol

[Halsu]

I could care less, 2/3rds, it's absolutly useless to me for the way I shoot. If I want deep focus, I throw on a wide and stop it down a few clicks, no big deal. It's just a matter of a month or two before they announce there will be no scarlet 2/3rds fixed either. Anyone that waited and still does for these guys to deliver is a dumb ass! straight up!

They're slow indeed, but everything they have delivered so far has pretty much blown all competition out the water. I have no ultra-shallow DoF fetish, but i do have a desire for high image quality and flexibility - which is where Scarlet will shine. I personally am still geeking out over scarlet, it's pretty much my dream camera come true (one day, eh).

They got their ass handed to them by Sony. Sony was smart enough not to try and reinvent the wheel. They just took whats available and pieced it to together. And guess what?? They were able to produce several affordable camera that exist, and are for sale, for people to use. MY GOD, THE CONCEPT OF THAT. Imagine a company delivers a product ONTIME, WAIT The FS 100 was early. WOW, That sends a shiver down my spine. Seriously though, The funniest part is they tried to be so technically superior and unique, it totally backfired and now look at them, Nothing for sale, and they look like dicks.

Well, there's Red One and Epic-M...

...anyway, FS100 is a cool camera, priced rather close to expected Scarlet price. Apart from DoF, there's no competition really, at least specs wise. And as far as DoF goes, the kit lens on it is F3.5–6.3, so the shallowest available DoF should actually be rather similar to Scarlet fixed and it's constant F2.4 lens (the more you zoom in, the smaller the difference should be, according to the numbers - fully zoomed in they should be almost exactly the same). Of course, buying fast primes will give FS100 shallower DoF.

Now here comes the "well they just sold a bunch of epics, blah blah blah, and more fukin blahhh. WHO cares, it still has no bearing on me what so ever. Why, because I cant afford it, second, for internet, epic really isn't necessary. The Canons do just fine for this medium. I dont need 120 frames a second, Besides ultra slow motion is annoying after two or three seconds regardless.

It may have no bearing for you, but does have a lot for the industry.

[antman]

Halsu, your always so calm and collective. you crack me up.

[Halsu]

Halsu, your always so calm and collective. you crack me up.

Thank you, I'm here all week. Try the veal.

[1]

mostly for the better, but the sleep deprivation is a bitch...

This solved all such problems for me (wife not so lucky):

FoamEarPlugs.jpg

[antman]

ear plugs, haha, at first I thought that was a block of cheese. lol. Yes those will be the best 99cents you will ever spend.

[antman]

Thank you, I'm here all week. Try the veal.

lol.

[Duke]

It may have no bearing for you, but does have a lot for the industry.

It remains to be seen if it will have any effect on the industry at all. What matters is what the competition has available if/when the Scarlet does come out.

If the 3k for $3k had come out when they talked about it, it may have been revolutionary. The end of this year isn't that much different than the next NAB. You've been telling me the Scarlet will be here soon, just wait, since 2008.

Lets face it, the Scarlet 2/3" is intended for 2k and its delayed again. It will be in direct competition with the Panny, Canon and Sony prosumer offerings. A major point of the FS100 is that it can handle almost any lens. Use good, cheap Nikon primes and that thing can practically see in the dark. The Scarlet 2/3" can't on either account.

And its likely that Panny, Canon or Sony will have another model out by the time the Scarlet is actually available. Canon has solid state cameras with full raster internal 4.2.2. I'm expecting them to throw a S35 sensor in one and release it next. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a Sony sensor.

Something like that would probably be Sony's next model release too. Imagine if they did that as a firmware upgrade on the F3. (It's sheer speculation on my part, but its not the sensor or the SxS recording media that is the bottle neck.)

The Epic 'lite' will be out because its the same production line as the Epic. The Scarlet is not the same production line. If there is too much competition Red may decide its not profitable to make a Scarlet 2/3" at all.

[antman]

I'm not sure why Red would make a fixed lens over a removable lens model, it doesn't make sense to me. It would be cheaper, easier to produce and give a heck of a lot more options. They could always make a propietery lens mount and sell their glass exclusivly without the option to use others glass. Thats pretty much what it is now, but with less options for focal lengthes. And they could make a fast lens where you could get some decent shallow dof if you want it. Idk, maybe Im looking at it all wrong, or maybe they dont want to let the R&D they put into it go wasted. It does seem odd though.

[1]

It does seem odd though.

Not really.

JJ is a marketing whizz-"kid". Nothing more. But he's REALLY good at that.

- get a huge crowd all excited; create buzz
- align with a big forum and its owner
- when voices of doubt start to crop up, show some T&A
- once the "word is out" the bigwigs will take notice, at that point:
- option to drop initial buzz product (too many headaches with whiners and moaners anyway)

The inclusion of hoes in the latest Scarlet sample just manifests my unaltered opinion of the whole RED deal (although it did look stunning! )

[Halsu]

It remains to be seen if it will have any effect on the industry at all. What matters is what the competition has available if/when the Scarlet does come out.

We weren't talking about Scarlet, but Epic. It's out there right now, making it's effect as we discuss here...

If the 3k for $3k had come out when they talked about it, it may have been revolutionary. The end of this year isn't that much different than the next NAB. You've been telling me the Scarlet will be here soon, just wait, since 2008.

Yep, they've been slow ;-)

But in the other hand, there's still nothing that competes with Scarlet in the sub $ 50 000 range from any of the other manufacturers (Alexa is the closest contender, i think). It's still revolutionary.

Lets face it, the Scarlet 2/3" is intended for 2k and its delayed again. It will be in direct competition with the Panny, Canon and Sony prosumer offerings. A major point of the FS100 is that it can handle almost any lens. Use good, cheap Nikon primes and that thing can practically see in the dark. The Scarlet 2/3" can't on either account.

It does compete with those, partially, due to it's low price point. But it also competes with cameras like Arri's Alexa, Sony's HDCAM SR series etc., cameras that are tens of thousands, if not over a hundred more expensive, as a perfectly valid no-excuses tool for feature film photography etc. It's not a prosumer camera.

The Epic 'lite' will be out because its the same production line as the Epic. The Scarlet is not the same production line. If there is too much competition Red may decide its not profitable to make a Scarlet 2/3" at all.

Yes, and cows may fly.

[Halsu]

I'm not sure why Red would make a fixed lens over a removable lens model, it doesn't make sense to me. It would be cheaper, easier to produce and give a heck of a lot more options. They could always make a propietery lens mount and sell their glass exclusivly without the option to use others glass. Thats pretty much what it is now, but with less options for focal lengthes. And they could make a fast lens where you could get some decent shallow dof if you want it. Idk, maybe Im looking at it all wrong, or maybe they dont want to let the R&D they put into it go wasted. It does seem odd though.

They are making both. A fixed lens camera AND an interchangeable lens camera. They are also making their own fast primes to go with the latter.

This said, at F2.4 throughout the entire range, the fixed lens isn't exactly slow either. I personally am looking forward to buying that version, for the simplicity, compactness, flexibility and speed of operation - and i think so will many, many others.

And as far as choices of focal lengths goes, you naturally have MORE choices with a zoom than with any collection of primes, as you can use any random intermediate value between the prime choices. And i assume they will produce tele / wide converters for an extended range at a later time too.