Best Camera for Sketch Comedy?

[John718]

In the coming months I will be hoping to buy a camcorder to film my sketch troupes sketches. Really stumped on what to go for though! My budget is up to £800. I know I wont be able to afford a prosumer camcorder and I dont like the idea of buying one second hand.

What I want is good quality, and good sound. Sound is very important.

The camcorders I was looking at so far are the:

Canon Legria HV40
Canon Legria HF20
Panasonic SD60

Which would you say is best for my needs? Considering both Canons are quite expensive to get a hold of in the UK. Is the SD60 a good camcorder? Would I be able to get a good mic for it? Like a RODE or something.

Sorry if I've posted in the wrong place lol

[Fade to inferno]

i would go with the Canon Legria HV40. Manual Controls, and using miniDV (tape) is less stressful on your computer.

[drapeama]

i would go with the Canon Legria HV40. Manual Controls, and using miniDV (tape) is less stressful on your computer.

I'm with Fade, HDV is less "computer-demanding" than HDD / memory card-based camcorders. And the quality is ~very similar.

[cgbier]

me too!

[Phantai]

Not a fan of DV. Flash all the way. Ease of access from pretty much ANY computer. Less moving parts means a flashcard camcorder will most likely outlive its dv counterpart. The worst part is just how many problems there are with the mechanisms that deal with spinning the tapes. They are known to wear out, stop functioning, break, get cluttered with debris and dust, etc. HF21 if you're on a budget, HFS21 if you've got some money

[Koppel]

I'm a owner of a HV30 and even with Rode VideoMic I can't get sound that is very good for dialogue.

On top of the cam, the mic still records some noise from the tape motors.
With a 3 meter extention cord the cord starts to pick up some electrical noise.
It's never really clean.

I guess you can get good sound when you buy a Beachtek adapter to use mics with XLR output and use a boompole to get the mic close to the actors... I bought a Sony PCM-D50 to record sound separately.

Syncing in post isn't hard for staged shots. You just clap and line up the waveforms from the cameras onboard sound and the external recorder.

For useable sound, onboard mic-s are totally useless... doesn't matter if you use a quiet flash or a noisy DV cassette. You have to get the mic close... so you need an external recorder or a Beachteck adapter and an XLR mic.

After a good recording you still have to tweak the sound in post.

[net]

In the coming months I will be hoping to buy a camcorder to film my sketch troupes sketches.
What I want is good quality, and good sound. Sound is very important.

The camcorders I was looking at so far are the:

Canon Legria HV40
Canon Legria HF20
Panasonic SD60

If you do decide to go tapeless/flash memory cards, the HF S200 is the best choice:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-LEGRIA...5454754&sr=8-1

The HF S200, (HFS 20 and HF S21 are from the same family), is closer to the HV40 than the HF20.
Like the HV40, the HF S200 has zebra patterns which helps to correctly expose your shots. You can also manually focus with the wheel on front; the HF20 you need to use the joystick. Plus, the HF S200 has many other features the HF20 does not. The HF20 is more of a point-and-shoot camcorder.

The HF S200 is supposed to have better audio quality, due to the mic placement on the side of the lens, but it's probably going to have some hiss on the audio like most of them do - apparently so you'll purchase one of their branded mics.

If you are doing any kind of artistic endeavors, it would be ideal to get a separate audio recorder and then sync later in your video editor, while muting the camcorder's audio before render. It is not a difficult thing to do. Before the action, and while both the camcorder and the separate audio device are recording, (the recording on the separate devices don't have to be started at the exact same time), - you vocally identify the scene and/or write it down and film it. Then clap your hands together on screen (or use a clap board with the info written on it/like Hollywood movies).

The hand clap or noise from the clap board provides a sync point; it will show up as a spike in the audio/visually identifiable. When you later have both the camcorder audio and audio from the recorder, you line them up visually so that the similar looking audio wav forms are in line together (it may be a tiny fraction off/doesn't matter) and then mute the camcorder audio and only use the audio from the recorder as your final.

With a separate, battery powered audio recorder/mic - it isn't tethered to the camera, so you can have an audio guy put it at the end of a boom stand or put it on a stationary boom stand with legs and position it low by the actors, but still out of the top of the frame.

If you want to keep costs down, you could consider the Zoom H1:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoom-H1-with...5455527&sr=1-1


If decide to get a Panasonic camcorder, spend the extra money on the SD600 it has 3 sensors (instead of one on the SD60) and comes with a remote control and shoots in 50p/progressive recording. (There is an even better camcorder, in the US it's called the Panasonic HDC-TM700K - but it's not clear to me the name of the UK equivalent/you'd have to look into that.) I don't think the SD600 has a mic input - but that wouldn't matter if you used a separate audio recorder, anyway. The SD600 also has zebra patterns - which the HD60 does not:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-19...5457072&sr=1-1

If you want to go with the tapes/HV40 - that's cool. I just wanted to point out that the tapeless models you mentioned are not the best choices/spend the extra money. You can wait for the newer Canon HF M's to come out soon - they might be better in low light, but they will not have the extra features, like zebra patterns, etc.

[John718]

Thanks everyone. Still got some time to mull everything over thankfully lol

Would buying a Panasonic DVX100 for £600-800 from the States be worth it? I don't plan on watching anything back on my tv, just to record, edit then upload using Sony Vegas 10. Would there be many problems? The XLR ports are still the same to ours right? And does anyone have an idea about import tax and such? lol

Thanks again.

[cornreaper]

Honestly, if these sketches are destined for online viewing, then 720p is plenty good enough. Pick up any recent Canon Powershot and it will shoot beautiful video with decent manual exposure control. For a very good audio setup, get a hypercardioid, a preamp and a Zoom H1. The downside here is you'll have to sync everything in post, but it's not that hard to do. Add a basic lighting kit and whatever cables and accessories you need and you're ready to rock and roll for less than $700, or roughly £440.

[HueyNRolf]

Honestly, if these sketches are destined for online viewing, then 720p is plenty good enough. Pick up any recent Canon Powershot and it will shoot beautiful video with decent manual exposure control. For a very good audio setup, get a hypercardioid, a preamp and a Zoom H1. The downside here is you'll have to sync everything in post, but it's not that hard to do. Add a basic lighting kit and whatever cables and accessories you need and you're ready to rock and roll for less than $700, or roughly £440.

I was just about to post that the budget looks a little light for both camera and sound gear. But that's a good solution. The only thing I'd add is an impedance-matching transformer between the pre and H1.

[cornreaper]

You're the sound expert

[John718]

Anybody know much about this camera called the SPEED HD-120Z?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SPEED-HD-120...5548619&sr=8-1

It looks a little too good to be true. Anybody had any experiance with it?

[Fade to inferno]

I don't see any mentioning of manual controls, white balance, manual focusing, frame rate. So no, i'm pretty sure it's true.

[zagnut]

I would agree with Net on the HFS200. Or, consider a used HF11. It was Canon's top of the line consumer camcorder the year it came out and was voted camcorder of the year by camcorderinfo.com in 2008. Sure it's a little dated and doesn't have Zebras, but it's great in low light. I've seen ones in mint condition going for about $400USD on E-bay. I believe the PAL version was the HF11E. With any money saved, you could buy accessories like mic(s), wide angle lens, etc.

The nice thing about flash based camera's, is there's no moving parts. So buying used is a little less worrisome.

I love my HF11 and would only upgrade to something that was $2000-$3000USD.

[John718]

Thing about the HF11 is it seems incredibly hard to find in the UK!

Brings me back to my other question, would I be safe to import if all my intentions are to edit on Sony Vegas 10 and upload?

If that would be safe then I could afford a Canon XL2 or a Panasonic DVX100 if import tax isn't too bad.

[zagnut]

Thing about the HF11 is it seems incredibly hard to find in the UK!

Brings me back to my other question, would I be safe to import if all my intentions are to edit on Sony Vegas 10 and upload?

If that would be safe then I could afford a Canon XL2 or a Panasonic DVX100 if import tax isn't too bad.

I don't see why you wouldn't be "safe". Just keep in mind that UK is PAL and uses 25fps and 50fps frame rates, while NTSC cams from the US use 24, 30 and 60FPS frame rates. This could be a problem if you intend to view NTSC footage on your PAL TV's.
I'm not sure if it would be a problem if it's just for youtube.

[HueyNRolf]

I've sent DVs to PAL land, which were authored from an NTSC project and people tell me that they play fine. I haven't seen the results for myself. So I can't say for sure what 'fine' means. Seems that they do play, at least.

[net]

Thing about the HF11 is it seems incredibly hard to find in the UK!

Brings me back to my other question, would I be safe to import if all my intentions are to edit on Sony Vegas 10 and upload?

If that would be safe then I could afford a Canon XL2 or a Panasonic DVX100 if import tax isn't too bad.

Well...if you don't want to spend for something like the HF S200 or don't want to get a point and shoot camera that shoots HD video and you can't get a hold of an HF11:
You could get a Canon from the HF M series. They are similar to the HF11, although the HF M's have newer features like the powered IS, touch & track focus and newer processor, but have a smaller sensor then the HF11. You're probably going to be using lights anyway:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-LEGRIA...5577555&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-Defini...5577555&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-LEGRIA...5578000&sr=1-1

The HF11 had a joystick, the HF M camcorders are touchscreen, if that makes any difference to you. Another thing to keep in mind, is that the first batch of flash memory/Canon HF camcorders, (HF100, HF10, HF11), the image gets cropped in the LCD screen. What you see is not what's later represented in the video. For example, if you have the camera zoomed into the edges of a greenscreen that's hanging on a wall and the wall is not showing on the LCD - the wall will show up on the actual video on your computer, because it is the uncropped version. Although, you could zoom in a bit every time you shoot to compensate.

This was corrected with the next generation (HF20, etc.) and onward. The HF M's are not cropped in the LCD. If you are interested in the mid-range camcorders, I don't think it would be worth it to get an NTSC model and pay customs, etc. for what would be a minimal difference, if any.

[net]

Actually, if you can wait until March, the new Canon HF M4's come out:

http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Prod...406/index.aspx

http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Prod...M46/index.aspx

http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Prod...M41/index.aspx

The prices are always higher when they first relase them.

The HF M camcorders will have the same size sensor as the HF11, but is supposed to be improved, using the HD CMOS Pro sensor also found in their higher end camcorders.

[John718]

I'll look into those.

Another question. Is there any difference between the PAL HV30 and 40? Apart from price?

Basically, if I bought a PAL HV30 would I still have to bother with pulldown when shooting in 25p or could I just shoot and edit?

Thanks again everyone.

[Fade to inferno]

hv30 requires pull down. hv40 does not.

[HueyNRolf]

I don't think 25P requires pulldown removal.

[drapeama]

I don't think 25P requires pulldown removal.

1) 25p doesn't require pulldown, as it's scanned progressively and wrapped in a 50i container, to respect PAL HDV specs.
2) 24p on the other hand requires the pulldown process because it's scanned progressively & wrapped in a 60i container, but as it use duplicated frames to fill the 60i framerate, you need to remove these frames in order to work with true 24fps.

[zagnut]

1) 25p doesn't require pulldown, as it's scanned progressively and wrapped in a 50i container, to respect PAL HDV specs.
2) 24p on the other hand requires the pulldown process because it's scanned progressively & wrapped in a 60i container, but as it use duplicated frames to fill the 60i framerate, you need to remove these frames in order to work with true 24fps.

What this man said. Example; set project properties in Vegas as 25p, render as 25p. Same as I would do with 30p from my HF11.