New announcement of an announcement!
"We will announce a new option for EPIC in the next few days. Jim"
http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=4997
You know how Red always makes an announcement when another camera company releases info on a camera that may compete with a Red camera.
Well here they had the AF100 release of info by Panasonic, then Red announces the Epic is ready (even though it isn't), then Sony announces the F3!
What is Red to do? Make an announcement of an announcement of an announcement?
You have to feel for those guys. If they'd managed to get everything to come together then RED really could have become a lasting brand.
I just don't see how they can compete now that all the unique selling points of their cameras are being eroded by the established manufacturers.
It can only be a matter of time until RED go under.
The Sony seems to be a bit on the expensive side.
The PWM-F3L package will shipping end of January or early February as a basic camera with PL adaptor (no lenses): list price will be around $16,000. Yes, the comma is in the correct place: $16K.
Then again, compared to ARRI Alexa it's really cheap.
I don't think the picture quality from the ARRI or SONY looks that much different from the Panasonic AF100.
A lot of people need something just a little better than a DSLR. Keep the shallow DOF, loose the moire and aliasing, add PCM audio recording with XLR inputs and ND filters... basically what the Panasonic AF100 is.
The Scarlet has just a few things better, 120fps recording and HDR shooting.
RAW is also great but the Panasonic seems to have a better workflow.
The Scarlet is not that special anymore...
Yeah the Panasonic AF100 is looking very nice indeed. Once some new hybrid camcorder (maybe the elusive new Canon that rumoured) comes out with 120fps and better latitude... whats left for Red?
Picture quality WHERE? Once you get past a certain level and into the pro gear, it's not about the web anymore. The pros are looking for specs that hold up in Broadcast TV, or the Big Screen.Originally Posted by Koppel
Those specs dont' mean much when you're looking at footage on the web, and after a certain point, one camera will do as well as another for that.
Red doesn't look any better than the Af-100 on the web, really. BUT, if you're going to color grade the footage, ad serious professional special effects, and show it at a theater, you might see a difference.
And what do I care about 50mbs for Vimeo and Youtube? Makes no difference to me. But, if you're selling a documentary to the BBC, they want 50mbs minimum.
I think it's just a matter of whether you're doing film festivals and youtube, or making national commercials, and movies for a theatrical release.
There's some crossover these days, some prosumer gear being used by the pros, and some prosumers being able to afford some pro gear. But the division is still there, and if you want to meet professional standards, you still need the pro gear.
You talk about web. I never mentioned web. I was thinking about quality straight out of camera.
EOSHD.com
Compared to the $150k Sony F35, the Arri Alexa is a bargain at $50k. Compared to the Arri Alexa the Sony F3 is a bargain at $20k. Compared to the Sony F3 the Panasonic AF100 is a steal at $5k. Compared to an AF100 the GH2 is a giveaway at $1000. You get the idea... the F3 is not going to be for the masses.
I would like to see a resolution chart and dynamic range comparison between these.
I dont think that above the AF100 things change too much.
When testing Nigel Cooper said the AF100 resolution tested similar to the EX1, at the Nyquist limits. (No one has see those test results though but I don't doubt it.)
The biggest advantages of the F3 over the AF100 are noise and dynamic range. The signal to noise ratio on the F3 is 64db, which is spectacular. The EX1 is extremely good when compared to prosumer cams, like the HMC150, etc, and its at 57db. The AF100 has more noise than an F3, not bad but its there.
On top of that the s-log on the F3 increases dynamic range 640% according to Sony. But you would expect those sort of improvements in a more expensive camera.
For most things you can work around these limitations if you know how and spend the time. More important is the F3 and AF100 can be bought in the next couple of months.
It all depends ;-)
To some, RAW, HDR, 3K resolution and 120 fps are pretty impressive features, still unmatched by any competition out there under $100K, AFAIK.
As far as workflow goes, you can simply drag and drop the Red files to timeline in i.e. Sony Vegas or Premiere and start editing - doesn't get much easier than that...
BTW, the announcement of announcement was about a small number of hand made Epics available to the public before the regular manufacturing kicks off - at a premium price of around $ 60 000... and yep, it looks like there's more demand for those than they can supply - many are willing to pay double price for an Epic to get it a month or two early.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Being unavailable to purchase for who-knows-how-long yet, it's SOOOO unmatched, it can't even match itself!
Come on Halsu, you were telling me the Scarlet was going to be here in 2009. Now 2010 is about gone.
In the mean time two versions of the Scarlet have already been canceled (3k for $3k, and S35). Their remnants will be in different cameras with new features and new prices (ie. a whole new camera.)
That just means more delays. Originally I estimated April 2011 for the release date, but I've now revised that to Summer 2012. Right now they've just started testing the protypes of the Epic.
In the mean time cameras like the Sony F3 are being introduced with a fantastic S35 sensor and system, with an upgrade to 4.4.4 color, and a starting price of $13,300. Just gorgeous pictures and a tremendous signal to noise ratio.
With the debayer filter the 3k scarlet resolves about 2.2k. Its intended for 2k delivery, which isn't that different than 1920 width resolution.
With competition like, plus new cameras to come, there may never be a scarlet. Or just an Epic lite at $20,000.
Epic......FAIL!
(as my son would say
I don't think i was. I did say though that their own estimate at that point was 2009 release date, and that i had no better knowledge than that, thus i was optimistic ;-)
Everything's subject to change ;-)In the mean time two versions of the Scarlet have already been canceled (3k for $3k, and S35). Their remnants will be in different cameras with new features and new prices (ie. a whole new camera.)
The original 3k for 3k Scarlet ceased to exist at the same time S35 was announced, when they switched to modular. The current fixed camera will go for around 6K with all necessary accessories to shoot AFAIK, and the body only with interchangeable lens mount goes for under 4K.
Of course that's utter bull. In fact, Epic is done and out there right now, used in real feature film production (Spiderman, in 3D, shooting now):That just means more delays. Originally I estimated April 2011 for the release date, but I've now revised that to Summer 2012. Right now they've just started testing the protypes of the Epic.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52649
Small prerelease series of handmade Epics is also available for purchase, at a premium price though.
...of course that 4:4:4 upgrade or it's pricing are not available yet. Vaporware, as they say ;-)In the mean time cameras like the Sony F3 are being introduced with a fantastic S35 sensor and system, with an upgrade to 4.4.4 color, and a starting price of $13,300. Just gorgeous pictures and a tremendous signal to noise ratio.
Also, you'll need to be tethered to a 4:4:4 capable recorder to make use of that. One like these babies:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-vid...at-rechdcamsr/
I found an used one, asking price $119,900.00:
http://www.film-bay.com/FORSALE/Came...C1/112971.html
...not cheap, eh?
The F3 has a bayer sensor too. I'd assume it will resolve around 1.5K at best.With the debayer filter the 3k scarlet resolves about 2.2k. Its intended for 2k delivery, which isn't that different than 1920 width resolution.
This said, it's a nice camera, just not nearly in the same league as the Red offerings.
Utter bull. Scarlet is already done mechanically, the only thing they still work on is the firmware. The Epic-S (former Scarlet S35) pricing is not available yet, but before the change it was priced $8000 (assuming $1K for the HDRI capability). It will likely rise, but that $20 000 is just your guess, which is probably way over what will happen.With competition like, plus new cameras to come, there may never be a scarlet. Or just an Epic lite at $20,000.
Last edited by Halsu; 2010 December 7th at 02:56.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Forgot to mention - Peter Jackson's "Hobbit" will shoot on Epics too...
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Hobbit back on track again? Neat!
Spanish dude still directing?
The Spaniard dropped the ball, Jackson is back in the helm. Shooting starts early next year, release is set for December 2012.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread....ghlight=hobbit
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903624/
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
So they misled you then. They were wrong so you were wrong. And you think they are right this time why? Because they said so?
When Peter Jackson shot that first experimental short with the Red One it was a barely functioning camera. For all the crashes and issues its a wonder he got it done. I wouldn't have put up with it. Even when the first retail Red One's were shipping they had lots of issues. Barry Green was mentioning his experience when buying an early Red One. He got rid of it very quickly.
The few Epics in existence are a jury rigged lot. Certification and testing are not complete.
Just because there is an announcement doesn't make it so, any more than calling those first Red Ones ready to go meant that they really were ready to go.
They aren't available for purchase. They're available for preorder. They will be made later. (I live a couple miles from the Red store. I was there last week.)
I agree with you there. Its vaporware until you can actually buy it. But Sony has been releasing what they're advertising, not canceling the products.
Those are not cheap. However, Sony said they are releasing two other recorders and one is supposed to be much cheaper. Plus I was talking to a Convergent Design person about the dual HD-SDI out of the Sony. The Nano is 4.2.2, and they have 3D working with synched Nanos. If you have two separate data streams from the HD-SDI out couldn't you have two synched Nanos and take different parts of the 4.4.4 color data from each. He's going to talk to the engineers about it.
A 3.4k sensor that after a debayer filter has no problems with full raster 1080p resolution.
So far there is only one Red camera offering, plus one sensor upgrade. At $13,300 for an F3 with battery, LCD, grip, mic, etc. compared to a Red One MX at $25,000 with no battery, LCD, grip, etc you're right they aren't in the same categories of prices or abilities. A fully outfited Red One MX will run about $40k.
As you said above its vaporware until you can actually buy it. You don't know the price, features, or anything about it yet. Don't fall in love with a spec sheet.
I don't mean to argue. Sorry if it came off that way. "Just show me."
Nope, they didn't mislead. They simply made an overly optimistic estimate, which i do think they themselves believed at that time. Everything is a subject to change, as said many times but hey, i'm an optimist and reserve the right to stay that way.
As far as being right this time goes, well, the Epics are out there right now, working, shooting a major motion picture.
I'm pretty sure i wouldn't have gotten rid of it, if i had one ;-)When Peter Jackson shot that first experimental short with the Red One it was a barely functioning camera. For all the crashes and issues its a wonder he got it done. I wouldn't have put up with it. Even when the first retail Red One's were shipping they had lots of issues. Barry Green was mentioning his experience when buying an early Red One. He got rid of it very quickly.
As far as i have understood, mechanical testing IS complete. Firmware is still in the works.The few Epics in existence are a jury rigged lot. Certification and testing are not complete.
It's not a just an announcement, they are actually shooting the new Spiderman movie with Epics, right now. Maybe you should try reading the link:Just because there is an announcement doesn't make it so, any more than calling those first Red Ones ready to go meant that they really were ready to go.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52649
That was the way Red Ones were sold for the first two years or so. The first hand made cameras will be delivered this month - will you accept them as "available for purchase" when the first one has shipped?They aren't available for purchase. They're available for preorder. They will be made later. (I live a couple miles from the Red store. I was there last week.)
Well, i was attempting sarcasm with that vaporware comment. As far as canceling products goes, i haven't noticed Red canceling anything so far - changing, yes. I dig the openness of Red - they let us peek into the development of their products early on, and even make changes according to user feedback. I understand why some hate this - i don't.I agree with you there. Its vaporware until you can actually buy it. But Sony has been releasing what they're advertising, not canceling the products.
Yep - maybe only $ 75 000 or so?Those are not cheap. However, Sony said they are releasing two other recorders and one is supposed to be much cheaper.
;-)
That would be pretty cool - though i recall NanoFlash is 8 bit only. So it's not the same. And two of those would set you back about $ 6000, even that is not exactly cheap.Plus I was talking to a Convergent Design person about the dual HD-SDI out of the Sony. The Nano is 4.2.2, and they have 3D working with synched Nanos. If you have two separate data streams from the HD-SDI out couldn't you have two synched Nanos and take different parts of the 4.4.4 color data from each. He's going to talk to the engineers about it.
Where did you get that info?A 3.4k sensor that after a debayer filter has no problems with full raster 1080p resolution.
I tried to look for the sensor details, and didn't find exact photosite counts. I did find some discussion about the photosites being four times as large as with DSLR's, which would imply a 1920*1080 sensor...
Arguably two, Epic is already out there, though not in numbers.So far there is only one Red camera offering, plus one sensor upgrade.
A fully outfitted F3 (in the same sense) will run around $ 25-30K. Add Sony's 4:4:4 recorder and that becomes 150K ;-)At $13,300 for an F3 with battery, LCD, grip, mic, etc. compared to a Red One MX at $25,000 with no battery, LCD, grip, etc you're right they aren't in the same categories of prices or abilities. A fully outfited Red One MX will run about $40k.
Seriously though, sure Red one is more expensive than F3. It's also a much better quality camera.
Not in love, but in appreciation -As you said above its vaporware until you can actually buy it. You don't know the price, features, or anything about it yet. Don't fall in love with a spec sheet.
The thing is, i work with Red One footage on a regular basis. Maybe not daily, but weekly. It's simply by far the best quality footage i've ever worked with, and i've worked with most of the good stuff out there, including 35mm film (Dalsa Origin was a good contender though).
I simply expect the new cameras to deliver similar or better quality. That's enough to make me enthusiastic.
NP, it's fun ;-)I don't mean to argue. Sorry if it came off that way. "Just show me."
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Most movies are shot on one camera, with maybe B and C units for crowd scenes and background shots. Double that for 3D. So lets say six cameras. More than that and scheduling becomes a nightmare and unit crews get in each others way.
Peter Jackson ordered 30 of those hand assembled cameras to shoot the Hobbit.
Do you think he ordered 5 times the number of cameras because he likes to spend money and have cameras sitting in boxes?
Or because working with them from the beginning, he has always been a Red insider, knows the failure rate and knows how much it costs to have cast and crew standing around because of a camera glitch? (And he knows that Red will eventually make them work right.)
PS. The Red makes great images. I'm sure the Epic will too. I'm just saying its not as ready to go as most people assume.
PSS. For an F3 with my full range of Nikon prime lenses and my Nano, then I buy a lens adapter and a battery.
Less than $14k and I can have pretty much everything I wanted from a Scarlet S35 in February. (One retailer is now saying Feb 5.) You can pull beautiful keys and push color really far on I-frame at 220 Mbps. (In 99% of situations 4.4.4 isn't going to give you more. Go with a Ki Pro Mini if you want 10bit) The law of diminishing returns.
Plus it fits right in my EX1 work flow. If you want to say that's $20k, fine by me, but there are lots of guys in the same situation.
Last edited by Duke; 2010 December 8th at 07:37.
Without knowing exactly, it's hard to tell. 30 sounds like a lot, but it might also be that they're i.e. prepared to crash a multitude of cameras or something. But yeah, it's likely that they keep plenty of cameras just as a backup.
Failure rate depends on the readiness of the system - Red One was prone to failures in the next half an year or so, but not anymore. It may very well be that the currently working cameras are like that, for now, but i doubt it. They've been worked on in-house much further than they did with Red One the red folks say.Or because working with them from the beginning, he has always been a Red insider, knows the failure rate and knows how much it costs to have cast and crew standing around because of a camera glitch? (And he knows that Red will eventually make them work right.)
As said, ready enough to be used in a major Hollywood production, not just test films. At least in the first day of the Spiderman shoots, all four Epics they had worked flawlessly:PS. The Red makes great images. I'm sure the Epic will too. I'm just saying its not as ready to go as most people assume.
Well, you're comparing apples and oranges. A 40K red package you referred to earlier likely includes pro quality cinema glass, matte box, follow focus etc., which amounts for a majority of the extra costs. A Red Package with DSLR lenses and minimum accessories to shoot is nowhere near 40K.
It will be interesting to know the pricing and availability for Epic-S (Former Scarlet S35). It might be much closer than you expect, and also much more affordable than you fear. The old version at least was cheaper than F3, even if you added decent catering of accessories to go with it.
This said, i like EX1 a lot, it's my weapon of choice nowadays. I rarely have a need for anything higher than the MPEG files it provides, even for greenscreen. It's plenty good for my purposes, so would be the F3. This doesn't take away the fact that the Red footage is in a league of it's own compared to this, as far as flexibility in post etc. goes. Is that flexibility really needed for most of the work i do? Not really. Is it crucial in some cases? Yep, it is, sometimes.
Last edited by Halsu; 2010 December 8th at 09:28.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
A 3.4k sensor that after a debayer filter has no problems with full raster 1080p resolution.The Arri Alexa is a 3.5k sensor, the F3 is a 3.43k sensor (based on Phillip Johnstons' interview with Sony). What Arri & Sony are doing is down scaling a 3.4-3.5k sensor into a 1920x1080 output resolution.Where did you get that info?
I tried to look for the sensor details, and didn't find exact photosite counts. I did find some discussion about the photosites being four times as large as with DSLR's, which would imply a 1920*1080 sensor...
Keep in mind, there is a general misunderstanding of the differentiation of a 'pixel' relative to a photosite. So if one group of a bayer pixels equals one output pixel, then yes, it will not be 444. But its not a 1:1 relationship in Alexa or the F3.
So in the case of Arri's Alev III sensor in the Alexa, it has a real resolution of 3392 x 2200 pixels which then downsized to 1920x1080. So by increasing the ratio of photosites relative to output resolution you are increasing the RGB resolution. It won't be perfectly RGB, but you can come incredibly close. Sony's F3 sensor is supposedly 3.43k so its taking a fairly similar route.
For RED, they are taking a similar approach but with a different implementation, by packing in more photosites you can compensate for a lack of RGB resolution in bayer. Red's 4k sensor resolution isn't really 4k, its closer to 3.2k, hence the existence of the Epic 5k.
Unlike, Arri and Sony, Red leaves most of the work up to the user to convert that into a final product. This introduces workflow issues but allows more creative freedom; pick your poison.
Sony and Arri seem to expect the final target resolution to be 2k rather then 4k. Hence, a ~3.5k sensor to be the right balance between resolution and the size of the photosites compared with the 5k of the Epic. So if your target resolution is 2k, then you benefit from larger photosites compared with the Epic.
The F3 will be capable of really close to true 4.4.4. Admittedly if you have the bucks and need to support that. Even without it the movies so far from the F3 have been really sharp, really low noise (63-64db SNR) and beautifully colored with extended dynamic range.
http://vimeo.com/16898584
http://vimeo.com/17392465
http://vimeo.com/16981467
Last edited by Duke; 2010 December 8th at 20:24.
Ok, cool. That's very good news, in that case the resulting image should be roughly in par with Scarlet resolution wise for 1080p output, assuming no need to i.e. reframe the shot, and 4:4:4 output from F3 (with 4:2:0 or 4:2:2, color resolution of F3 will be lower than with Scarlet).
It is 4.5K* when you look at the photosite count - which is what all manufacturers use, be it megapixels in still cameras, or the 1920*1080 sensor in HV20. The full Red1 system (including a good enough lens) can resolve roughly 3.6K of resolution, just like HV20 likely could do something like 1.5K, assuming the lens is up to the task.Red's 4k sensor resolution isn't really 4k, its closer to 3.2k, hence the existence of the Epic 5k.
*(Actually 5120 (h) x 2700 (v), some of it for lookaround, with 4.5K max for the actual imaging area)
Well, arri normally outputs log files AFAIK - useless without color correction. The Sony 4:4:4 output will be meant for log or lin too, not and out-of-the-box usable image... and in the other hand, i recall Scarlets and Epics have a 1080p RGB mode, in other words, you should be able to capture "baked" footage with them too, if so desired.Unlike, Arri and Sony, Red leaves most of the work up to the user to convert that into a final product. This introduces workflow issues but allows more creative freedom; pick your poison.
That's a common misconception. Photosite size doesn't give a (noise etc) benefit at a given target resolution, photosite AREA does. In other words, the end result if using one big photosite, or the combined output of multiple smaller ones covering the same area is the same in practice, in the resulting image.Sony and Arri seem to expect the final target resolution to be 2k rather then 4k. Hence, a ~3.5k sensor to be the right balance between resolution and the size of the photosites compared with the 5k of the Epic. So if your target resolution is 2k, then you benefit from larger photosites compared with the Epic.
Scarlet will be very close to true 4:4:4 too, at HD size. The SN ratio isn't known, but the Red one has 66dB. As the photosites are smaller, Scarlet will likely have a slightly lower S/N, maybe on par with F3. This is without the HDRI mode, which should add up to 6 stops more dynamic range on top of that. Of course, when it comes to color, when you shoot RAW, you can get pretty much any look you want...The F3 will be capable of really close to true 4.4.4. Admittedly if you have the bucks and need to support that. Even without it the movies so far from the F3 have been really sharp, really low noise (63-64db SNR) and beautifully colored with extended dynamic range.
...i'm talking about the 2/3" version here, the S35 version (Now Epic-S) has even better specs in all aspects.
That first one was recorded in linear color space to a 10 bit recorder - as close to capturing RAW as F3 can do i assume. Looks pretty nice after color correction, though there are a few spots where the highlights are burnt out - it might be that the camera would have performed plenty well enough with a lower exposure and more boost in post, at least when recorded to an external HDCAM.
In the second, we again have a color corrected example. The exteriors burn to full white - This was corrected to a pretty high contrast, so hard to say how much of this is due to camera, how much due to post. It's likely though, that the camera was unable to keep the whole dynamic range in this scene.
In the last one, again some burnt out places, in the sky, in the building walls, the fire.
These do NOT show an exceptionally good handling of the dynamic range of the shots, but it's hard to say if the camera could have been set up to keep those highs intact, and still give usable results in the darker areas if exposed lower and compensated in post. It might, it might not.
Scarlet in the other hand should have been able to hold all that detail easily, if desired, especially with it's HDRI mode.
Last edited by Halsu; 2010 December 9th at 11:14.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Show me three scarlet examples.
Touché ;-)
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Scarlet in the hands of a civilian:
http://tonacitran.com/
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
The link you provided was to epic pictures and epic 3D. The link you were after is actually here. But its not shown actually working or even complete. No remote for controls for one thing.
http://tonacitran.com/red-scarlet-first-video/
Notable comments on compromises to keep costs down made in the clip:
1) No HD-SDI on the scarlet fixed.
2) CF card only, no SSD.
3) One ring to control all three; focus, iris and zoom on the fixed.
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