Red announces new delay...

[Gillvane]

5D MKII is plenty good enough, as long as the image doesn't have small detail, like venetian blinds or a brick wall, and as long as you don't need to do extensive color correction in post, and you can live with slightly soft image.



You're of course right, kind of. I'd watch a good movie shot with MiniDV on the big screen... but still, if i have the option for better IQ, why not go for it.

If image quality wasn't necessary, you'd be happy with a 20 year old VHS camera - i guess that's not the case ;-)

20 year old VHS looks so horrible it's actually distracts you from getting wrapped up in the story.

yes, good IQ is important, and better IQ is even nicer.

But we've gotten to "good enough" now. Everything else is gravy.

Now, we've got IQ that looks so nice that it doesn't distract you from the story.

Sure, if Red releases something that knocks everyone's socks off in the prosumer range, that's great.

But you don't need RAW and 4:2:2 to make good stories that suck the audience in. You have the IQ that will do that right now.

It used to be a monumental struggle to get the IQ. Now it isn't. Now everyone can shoot pretty footage. A little bit prettier won't make that much difference to the average person that isn't a videophile, and just likes to watch movies.

The real problem isn't a few jaggies in some venetian blinds. The real problem is if you give 9 out of 10 people a good camera, they can't make a good story with it that's interesting enough to make you not pay attention to the venetian blinds, or watch the film long enough to get to the shot with the venetian blinds.

One of my favorite movies is Forbidden Planet. It was released in 1956. I rarely see a sci fi flick that good, even with all the new CGI special effects that didn't exist back then.

[Halsu]

It used to be a monumental struggle to get the IQ. Now it isn't.

In my opinion, it hasn't been a struggle in years - HDV was the final barrier (or, arguably MiniDV already was). Other than shallower DOF, DSLR's don't add much to that. And no, in my opinion shallow DOF doesn't equal good IQ ;-)

The real problem isn't a few jaggies in some venetian blinds. The real problem is if you give 9 out of 10 people a good camera, they can't make a good story with it that's interesting enough to make you not pay attention to the venetian blinds, or watch the film long enough to get to the shot with the venetian blinds.

Exactly.

But the moiré is a real problem that regular video cameras do not have - it restricts one to skip a lot of shots (wide deep DOF shot of the city? - be very wary, or the buildings will look psychedelic!)...

This is a pretty good article about the phenomena:
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/article.php/20

One of my favorite movies is Forbidden Planet. It was released in 1956. I rarely see a sci fi flick that good, even with all the new CGI special effects that didn't exist back then.

I'm pretty sure that Forbidden Planet has rather deep DOF, and they used a lot of light. You could get very similar results with plain vanilla HV20 + some ND filters.

[cgbier]

Aren't you guys a bit too much in love with technology? How big is the amount of folks sitting in the cinema who really would see a difference between the footage of an HVxx and a Red? Popcorn, soda and action counts more for - I assume - 95% of movie goers than the technology behind it all.

[1]

Popcorn, soda and action counts more...

Aye!
Have you been to the movies lately? In the USA?
It's all Abercrombie&Finch show-offs with some sprinkles of: "...well, Josh was like, you know, come on already, and I was like, seriously, like he totally dumped Kailynn last week...."
The movie means [almost] nada...

[Ian-T]

In my opinion, it hasn't been a struggle in years - HDV was the final barrier (or, arguably MiniDV already was). Other than shallower DOF, DSLR's don't add much to that. And no, in my opinion shallow DOF doesn't equal good IQ ;-)

Well that’s just it. It’s not just about IQ….it’s about creativity. The DSLRs offer a lot more in terms of shallow DOF and light sensitivity. This means an individual does not have to bogged down with not having “enough” light to light a scene with a DSLR vs a traditional camcorder and DOF adapter. The DSLRs are also lighter in weight giving the DP more freedom to move around more. And then there is the infinite choice of lenses that have their own character. To technophiles like you the DSLR might not mean higher IQ but to the average Joe/Susie they can’t tell the difference.

But the moiré is a real problem that regular video cameras do not have - it restricts one to skip a lot of shots (wide deep DOF shot of the city? - be very wary, or the buildings will look psychedelic!)...

Have you shot with a DSLR? The moiré can be avoided most of the time. You just have to know its (the camera) weaknesses and work around them. How many times over the years have we heard that HDV wasn’t “good enough” or it can’t do this or that…or “not professional?” Yet blockbuster movies are/were made with HDV. Every format, including film, has their hiccups. But who cares really. Work around them (which I understand you do already with HDV). I guess my point is I don’t see moiré or aliasing as any different.

By the way....I see moire and aliasing all the time in professional broadcasts.

[Halsu]

Have you shot with a DSLR?

Well, i own D90. Haven't shot much more than some random shots with it though, i use it as a still camera.

I've done post on maybe a dozen or so MKII jobs, including greenscreen shoots. In all cases, the results have been pretty nice so far, and the clients have been happy with what they've got.

One MKII project is on post right now - and this time, i'm a bit worried that we may have seriously hit the limits on some shots... time will tell. This may be one reason why i feel a bit grumpy towards DSLR's right now ;-)

Work around them (which I understand you do already with HDV). I guess my point is I don’t see moiré or aliasing as any different.

Neither do i - it's simply one hurdle that needs to be taken into account - just like i.e. interlaced 4:2:0 color sampling or whatever. But the way to manage stuff like this is to actually know and acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of each system, not wishful thinking and makebelieve.

This said, i try to always use the most affordable system that's adequate for any given job - quite often, that's HV20 (including today's full day green screen shoot...).

[Gillvane]

But the moiré is a real problem that regular video cameras do not have - it restricts one to skip a lot of shots (wide deep DOF shot of the city? - be very wary, or the buildings will look psychedelic!)...

This is a pretty good article about the phenomena:
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/article.php/20



I'm pretty sure that Forbidden Planet has rather deep DOF, and they used a lot of light. You could get very similar results with plain vanilla HV20 + some ND filters.

I agree that moire can be distracting. It's funny, but different people are sensitive to different things, and moire tends to bother me quite a bit actually.

i was shooting some test footage the other day and actually got some bad moire with the Hv30 on a window screen. The scene was somebody scratching on teh screen from the outside. I was like, omg! this looks horrible, and my friend said don't worry about it, we'll get rid of the screen when we shoot, and just use the window, what do you think about the rest of the shot? but honestly it was hard for me to look at anything else, lighting, composition, etc., with all that moire.

So yes, better tools are good if they get rid of things that are actually distracting, like moire.


Forbidden Planet is almost all deep Depth of Field shots, no real shallow DoF that I can remember, so yea, DoF isn't always important depending on what you're shooting, but a nice tool to have in the tool box.

What I love about some of the Hammer films from the 1970's are the cool sets they shot on. Great castles, mansions, filled with crazy furniture and wild set dec. It's not often you get to shoot on sets like that with no budget.

[zephyrnoid]

Aren't you guys a bit too much in love with technology? How big is the amount of folks sitting in the cinema who really would see a difference between the footage of an HVxx and a Red? Popcorn, soda and action counts more for - I assume - 95% of movie goers than the technology behind it all.

Depends on how much 'post ' the raw captured files have to go through before they reach the Silver Screen.

Some noticeable factors that do matter:

1) Image degradation from center to corner. This matters a lot on a HUGE screen.
2) finesse of details where the point of attention is crucial to the shot.
3) Color grading
4) dynamic range/low light sensitivity ( I hear that Canon D7 beats RED?). Sometimes it's nice to shoot available light.
5) Not noticeable on screen but impacts the overall risk management of a project .... How likely is the camera to fail on a shoot. Albeit, you can truck a couple of dozen HVXX's for what one RED costs, but still.

[cgbier]

Zephyr, I understand all of that, but your reasons are what 95% of movie goers would give a lalala about.

Sure, I'm drooling also over the EX-1....

[Ian-T]

lol

[Duke]

Jim Jannard announced today that he will be doing a question and answer session tonight from 10pm to midnight PST. It posted on Scarletuser in the reconn section so I assume that means he'll be doing it on Reduser.

Since the Red boards have been so quiet lately the fanbois will be salivating. Anyone want to see a server crash, like when he posted the Scarlet program updates?

Just for the fun of it, here are my wild a$$ predictions:
1) The bug will be fixed soon.
2) They are negotiating with a new manufacturer.
3) They have no new updates on the production schedule yet.
4) The new improvements make the images look even better (even though we're not seeing them.)
5) They aren't ready to announce any new features yet.

Okay, maybe I'm a bit cynical about announcements of announcements.

[1]

Announcement; Duke, I will respond to your post tomorrow.

[Ian-T]

lol..

[Duke]

No guts, no glory.

[Halsu]

Okay, maybe I'm a bit cynical about announcements of announcements.

You are, but this time i agree you might be right ;-)

[Duke]

I'd say its pretty much what I predicted:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpos...07&postcount=1

I wish them all the best, but this didn't help much.

[Halsu]

I'd say its pretty much what I predicted:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpos...07&postcount=1

I wish them all the best, but this didn't help much.

Huh? Did you read the questions and answers that followed? Here's all 92 of them, collected for your convenience.

http://scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=4673

They may have missed some - i.e. my own Q/A was omitted from the list, it's later in the thread (Yes, they will reveal the technical details required for making 3rd party modules, some time after the release):

Just for the fun of it, here are my wild a$$ predictions:
1) The bug will be fixed soon.
2) They are negotiating with a new manufacturer.
3) They have no new updates on the production schedule yet.
4) The new improvements make the images look even better (even though we're not seeing them.)
5) They aren't ready to announce any new features yet.

1) Fixed already. Bug dead.
2) They're not saying what's the status. Which could mean pretty much anything ;-)
3) There were a few answers considering schedule, Scarlet is still on for 2010 release being the most interesting to me personally.
4) + 5) They did give a few interesting new details about the already known features, no big new announcements.

One of the most interesting new tidbits is that they now have working Scarlet prototypes.

[1]

Scarlet is still on for 2010 release being the most interesting to me personally.

I can change the "geeking" to "hallucinating" if you like!
If they do "release" the Scarlet in 2010 it will ONLY be in such small numbers so not to lose face. I doubt I, for instance, could buy one in 2010, and would say that's at least one year away.

Let's be realistic, they said IF ALL GOES AS PLANNED...it never goes according to plan.

[Timbit]

I can change the "geeking" to "hallucinating" if you like!

Hehe...


What can I have, Mal? Farmer Dude?

[Duke]

Huh? Did you read the questions and answers that followed? Here's all 92 of them, collected for your convenience.

Yep, I read them before they compiled them.

> 1) Fixed already. Bug dead.

Bug fixed three days ago or bug fixed soon, tomAtoes, tomahtoes. Same difference. (De minimus non curat lex.)

> 2) They're not saying what's the status. Which could mean pretty much anything ;-)

That's sort of the point of a non-announcement.

> 3) There were a few answers considering schedule, Scarlet is still on for 2010 release being the most interesting to me personally.

If everything goes as planned, but in R&D + Manufacturing nothing goes linear (as has been proven by many companies including Red.) I'll agree with Mal on this one. A few will be released to save face, but you and I won't be able to buy one. How many times do they have to change the release date before you think they won't stick to their release date?

> 4) + 5) They did give a few interesting new details about the already known features, no big new announcements.

Details on features, but no new features, which is what I said.

One of the most interesting new tidbits is that they now have working Scarlet prototypes.

Yep, that was interesting. If they're working why don't we see clips? Jim said they're too busy. If you and I wanted to post a clip, what would it take us to down convert some small clip and post it, 15-30 minutes?

[Halsu]

Bug fixed three days ago or bug fixed soon, tomAtoes, tomahtoes. Same difference. (De minimus non curat lex.)

Well, it was "bug will be fixed soon" for quite a while, assumably months. Now it's "bug has been fixed". Those are two very different things. I'd say your prediction was false.

= 0/1

That's sort of the point of a non-announcement.

Yep - you got this one right, kind of.

= 1/2

How many times do they have to change the release date before you think they won't stick to their release date?

Where did you get that from? I simply replied to your prediction "They have no new updates on the production schedule yet.", which was false. I didn't say i have high confidence in this update being accurate or anything.

= 1/3

Details on features, but no new features, which is what I said.

Yep - you got number four wrong, number five right.

That's 2/5 correct. I actually thought you'd get more than that, so i'm happyish with the Q/A.

Yep, that was interesting. If they're working why don't we see clips? Jim said they're too busy. If you and I wanted to post a clip, what would it take us to down convert some small clip and post it, 15-30 minutes?

I don't think they want to show just any clip. With Red one, the footage they posted before release was well produced scenes: "car commercial" -like scene, "1950´s girls drinking milk on a gas station" scene, "a short film by Peter Jackson" etc.

I'm pretty sure they want the footage to look very, very good because the first impression matters, and that's not something you do in 15 minutes.

[Halsu]

I can change the "geeking" to "hallucinating" if you like!
If they do "release" the Scarlet in 2010 it will ONLY be in such small numbers so not to lose face. I doubt I, for instance, could buy one in 2010, and would say that's at least one year away.

Well, that remains to be seen. The question was "so do you think that the scarlett will be available by the end of the year? ", and the reply simply "yes". That would imply full scale release, as in available to the public.

What we don't know is how far are their full scale production plans are, but they've had quite a lot of time to get that right so far. Changing the manufacturer might or might not add a significant delay. We'll see.

Let's be realistic, they said IF ALL GOES AS PLANNED...it never goes according to plan.

Yep ;-)

[Halsu]

I can change the "geeking" to "hallucinating" if you like!

Oh, that's already included in my every post: "Halsu" is a Finnish slang abbreviation of "Hallucination". It kind of (badly) rhymes with my middle name "Hannes" and my last name "Halkka", as does the Finnish word for "sauerkraut". A bit weird way to get a nick, but hey, that's what friends (and recreational substances) are for.

And i'm rather "Halsu" than "Hapankaali" ;-)

[1]

Well...

SERIOUSLY???

They don't have a manufacturer, and they don't even know in which country they will produce it. End of year for PRODUCTION
units that I could buy is out of the question, given common sense, industrial manufacturing knowledge, the speed at which the Earth rotates, and their track record.

Added:
I predict they may circumvent the above FACT though, with "releasing" maybe 20 to 40 hand-built units to a select few
(with available production units following WELL INTO 2011), and thus declaring they were accurate in their release schedule,
which technicality they were, which is why I qualified my original statement, as I'm egotistical enough to only worry about when "I" can actually buy one!




Very LOL on the halsu/Sauerkraut thing!

[Halsu]

They don't have a manufacturer, and they don't even know in which country they will produce it. End of year for PRODUCTION
units that I could buy is out of the question, given common sense, industrial manufacturing knowledge, the speed at which the Earth rotates, and their track record.

We don't really know whether they have a manufacturer or not, or if they even really gave boot to the original manufacturer. They've been pretty vague about it, "Scarlet is still undecided.... At least we aren't saying."

We have no idea whatsoever how far their process really is behind the curtain.