Canon HVxx image sensor, can match 550D?

[HV20_Likeable]

With everyone somewhat moving to the REbels and 550Ds cause of their full manual control and probably slightly bigger image sensor, that gives a great advantage to record many things (like low light) and without having ot add additional lenses to achieve Depth of Field.

However, with the HV cams, they are still good camcorders but just the lack of full manual control but able to provide a good image, their smaller image sensor doesnt help too much when it comes to low light, however i would like to ask htis, in theory if we were able to record raw data, we would have plenty of data or image information to mess with? For example if we filmed in the dark in raw, we could take that footage and assumingly 'recover' the data that we would normally loose in dark places in the image.

Am i technically right in this department? I am just speaking through thoughts with someknowlege inputted, ut i am just wondering what would be the case. Could we potentially match the 550D in image quality if that was the case and yet still have the better camera?

Also what is interesting, either way, if the move from the HV's to the 550D becomes more potent, where does this leave us with our HV20, HV30 and HV40's?

[Ratfink]

Not in any meaningful way. A imager needs a certain amount of light to hit it provide a clear image, if there isn't enough light hitting it the CMOS must resort to increasing the gain though an amplifier. This amplifier cannot tell noise from signal and everything is amplified, the lower the signal the closer to noise it becomes and ultimately the more noise you will see. All this happens in the analog portion of the imager.

[HV20_Likeable]

I always thought that that process happens seperately from the image sensor or before the internal encoding happen to HDV tape.

[Ratfink]

I always thought that that process happens seperately from the image sensor or before the internal encoding happen to HDV tape.

CCD imagers have seperate analog front ends, however CMOS has both the analog front end and the ADC on-die. This is one of the reason that companies find CMOS imagers so desirable.

[Jack Frost]

I just shot ( recorde them with my 550D ) my kids in the pool at 8:58 pm, - eastern standard time, go out tomorrow night and try to shoot with your HV20 in a pool with 2 lights going, it will results in dark footage.

I was shooting at 6400 ISO @ 2.8, and had amazing results, I haven't looked back at the footage yet on the computer, but know from previous shoots that the footage will be awesome. Amazing light coming into the lens and the sensor.

I could have got a lot more light into my T2i ( 550D ) if I had changed lenses to my $99 50mm fixed lens at f1.8 !

I turned my HV20 on when I was filming, for fun, and well, it was just way to dark to film. Put it this way, the camera was picking up 4x the light that my eye was able to pick up it was that dark.

you just can't beat a good lens and a camera like the 550D.

I love my HV20, and still use it all the time, but at times like this, it just wasn't made for shooting low light like this.

With everyone somewhat moving to the REbels and 550Ds cause of their full manual control and probably slightly bigger image sensor, that gives a great advantage to record many things (like low light) and without having ot add additional lenses to achieve Depth of Field.

[HV20_Likeable]

so there wouldnt be a point in filming raw if the amplification was done already in the CMOS chip?

because of the 550D, are we technically screwed when it comes to filming in low light?

[HV20_Likeable]

anyone at all may i ask?

[Atnas]

Of course the 550d is superior to the hv20.

I am not sure if the gain is applied in the chip, it would seem very strange to me if it were. What we would get from raw, would be the ability to decide how we wanted everything to look, and not let the camera decide that.
We'd have to do our own noise reduction.. etc.

[Ratfink]

I am not sure if the gain is applied in the chip, it would seem very strange to me if it were.

It is. And this is why camera makers like CMOS so much for HD. It means they don't have to worry about the nightmare that is highspeed analog.

[Jack Frost]

a few weeks ago I had a friend over playing piano in my living room. I shot with 2 cameras. My HV20 and my 550D ( T2i )

The living room doesn't have great light, and well, the footage from my HV20 is very grainy, and just nasty, it was dark, and unusable for me. I was hoping to do a montage of his playing going from camera a to camera b.

In the end, I never used any of the HV20 footage.

I love my Hv20 it's a nice cam, but it just doesn't cut it with low light. How can it compete though when it goes up against a digital SLR that has a huge lens on it. - it can't. The DSLR will win hands down in a situation like that.

Pop a $99 lens on that DSLR ( f1.8 50mm fixed Canon lens ) and you are laughing.... the amount of light an inexpensive lens like this pulls in is amazing.

In good light, the HV20 is lovely, I still love it, and I still cherish it, but I know when it will fail in my eyes, and that's in low light.

And to end, the video I shot of my friend playing the piano with my T2i ( 550D ) is awesome, you would think it was with 10x the amount of light than was actually there. Amazing is all I can say.

I'm not surprised that the Canon T2i is now the biggest selling digital SLR for consumers by far. Sales are so brisk many places can't keep them in stock.

And, we are on the tip of the iceberg.... wait another year or 2, and we'll see great strides in technology, things will get so much better. Larger sensor, more options, etc etc.

Bottom line - I'm so glad I bought the Canon T2i. ( 550D )

so there wouldnt be a point in filming raw if the amplification was done already in the CMOS chip?

because of the 550D, are we technically screwed when it comes to filming in low light?

[Timbit]

This is interesting. What you will need for the HV series of cameras is light, light, and more light. I like lights, but if you were in a position were you couldn't or didn't want to set up a light, the T2i is better.

[Bif]

because of the 550D, are we technically screwed when it comes to filming in low light?

Yes, and no...

You were...Kind of...When the HV20 was the most innovative consumer camcorder and winning "camcorder of the year" award. It's low light performance was no better or no worse than now when the 550D flies off the shelves faster than dealers can get them in.

Low light photography has always been the province and domain of those who knew what they were doing with it. I routinely photographed a bride & groom by the light of ONE candle with a camera and lens with maximum aperture of f3.5 or 2.8 and ISO 100 film.

The "secret" of how to do that worked even better with better light sources.

Get close to it: If you can see the glow of light on skin tones you can photograph it, so get close enough so you can see it's effect.

Make the light sources better: Take the low wattage bulbs out and put higher wattage bulbs in (but watch watt ratings of the lamp and socket!). If you have to, use an umbrella on a stand and "bounce" a gentle "wash" of light over a scene but keep it low key if you want to preserve the "available light" look. Keep that a fairly low wattage bulb and set exposure for the effect of room lamps.

Study light and lighting but avoid the temptation to go for "gadgets" and "gewgaws", learn the effects of lighting and how to achieve those.

Yes, the 550D, 7D, 5D MkII, and 1D Mk IV make available light work easier for us, but we still have to use lighting sense to get the best look out of those.

[HV20_Likeable]

I totally understand where you are coming from and you are generally right, the best case scenario is for us to work with more light involved.

However, not everyone is fortunate to work professionally and sometimes resorts to actually filming at night, impretty sure you understand what i mean, this si where the 550D wins over i assume, but what can be done for users like us and me that has a HV camcorder? Cinemode perhaps?

[Timbit]

You'll just have to invest time into learning how to use lights, and what lights are needed to achieve the look you want. It all takes learning...

[Bif]

However, not everyone is fortunate to work professionally and sometimes resorts to actually filming at night, impretty sure you understand what i mean, this si where the 550D wins over i assume, but what can be done for users like us and me that has a HV camcorder? Cinemode perhaps?

As you go about your daily routine/activities start really noticing people. Study the way light illuminates faces. It may be direct light streaming in from a window, soft light coming through a shade or curtain. Try to make yourself "aware" of the direction the dominant light is coming from and how it illuminates and "sculpts" faces and features.

Buy a "clamp" light socket with a 10" or 11" reflector and rig up some kind of "stand" to clamp it to. Get a friend willing to "pose" for you and sit them down, turn out all the room lights and try positioning and repositioning that clamp light from frontal to 45 degree angle, 90 degree sidelight, and other positions.

Take careful note of the effect of that one light, take some quick stills and you'll be amazed at what you've just taught yourself about light.

Here's an example of what one gal did in their studio "playing" with one light: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=451086

Now...Take that same "awareness" of light into your low light video situation and see if it helps.

[zephyrnoid]

I just shot ( recorde them with my 550D ) my kids in the pool at 8:58 pm, - eastern standard time, go out tomorrow night and try to shoot with your HV20 in a pool with 2 lights going, it will results in dark footage.

I was shooting at 6400 ISO @ 2.8, and had amazing results, I haven't looked back at the footage yet on the computer, but know from previous shoots that the footage will be awesome. Amazing light coming into the lens and the sensor.

I could have got a lot more light into my T2i ( 550D ) if I had changed lenses to my $99 50mm fixed lens at f1.8 !

I turned my HV20 on when I was filming, for fun, and well, it was just way to dark to film. Put it this way, the camera was picking up 4x the light that my eye was able to pick up it was that dark.

you just can't beat a good lens and a camera like the 550D.

I love my HV20, and still use it all the time, but at times like this, it just wasn't made for shooting low light like this.

The good people at RED Digital hate reading about how sensitive the 550D/7D sensors are. As soon as the DSLR's morph into real camcorders (30 minute recording before overheating) then you will have a revolution.

[Halsu]

The good people at RED Digital hate reading about how sensitive the 550D/7D sensors are. As soon as the DSLR's morph into real camcorders (30 minute recording before overheating) then you will have a revolution.

Line skipping and the recording format are much bigger problems than 30 minute rec time, if DSLR's are to compete with Red. As far as sensitivity goes, up-to-date Red cameras are pretty much equal, if not better than the DSLR's.