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  1. #126
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    Bluespoet seems as confused as you were about FCS and how the suite integrates. He doesn't make it clear if he's actually used FCS. One explanation is that he's used a pirated copy of FCP as a standalone, I know from some posts here that there was such a thing in use a while back.
    Anyone using a modern-legit version of FCS would have Soundtrack Pro and that's where you do the complex audio work.

    Vegas is better at digital video
    Yeah, so you keep saying. But it's all digital video, what other kind is there, analog?
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

  2. #127
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    That video you keep crapping on about doesn't support your argument at all. I've watched it twice (don't care to view it again) and none of things you think they're saying is in there.
    Yeeeaaah ooookay... denial.
    Bob, If I get time later I'll go back and find the comments you present as quotes from that video. I watched it twice and I'll be damned if I heard what you think was said.
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

  3. #128
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HueyNRolf View Post
    Bluespoet seems as confused as you were about FCS and how the suite integrates. He doesn't make it clear if he's actually used FCS. One explanation is that he's used a pirated copy of FCP as a standalone, I know from some posts here that there was such a thing in use a while back.
    Anyone using a modern-legit version of FCS would have Soundtrack Pro and that's where you do the complex audio work.
    Yeah that's the other thing that intrigues me... everyone is confused... except for you of course.

    Pirated copy??? But I thought Apple was safe??



    Yeah, so you keep saying. But it's all digital video, what other kind is there, analog?[/QUOTE] How about film.

  4. #129
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    Mike Jones uses both as well. In fact he TEACHES fcp. His opinion is that vegas is better at digital audio.
    Who's Mike Jones. Google thinks he's a rapper. And a link to this please? After you bent the facts from that video, who the hell is going to take your word for anything again?
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

  5. #130
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    How about film.
    And how does one edit film with FCS or Vegas?
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

  6. #131
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HueyNRolf View Post
    Who's Mike Jones. Google thinks he's a rapper. And a link to this please? After you bent the facts from that video, who the hell is going to take your word for anything again?
    You work with FCP and you haven't heard of Mike Jones?? You live sheltered life don't you.

    A few of his many write-ups:

    http://finalcutpro.digitalmedianet.c...fterinter=true

    http://www.bluprojekt.com/blog/video...ion-philosophy

    He was at one time the Head of Technological Arts - The International Film School Sydney... but I'm not sure if he does that anymore (it was a while ago)

    Mike Jones is a digital media producer, author, educator from Sydney, Australia. He has a diverse background across all areas of media production including film, video, TV, journalism, photography, music and on-line projects. Mike is the author of three books and more than 200 published essays, articles and reviews covering all aspects of cinematic form, technology and culture. Mike is currently Head of Technological Arts at the International Film School Sydney (www.ifss.edu.au), has an online home at www.mikejones.net and can be found profusely blogging for DMN at www.digitalbasin.net
    http://www.reviewseeker.com/articles...fterinter=true

  7. #132
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    I can understand the attachment to Vegas - it is a cool program and being above hobbyist level (WMM or iMovie) it allows users to exploit the potential of their footage and multi-track blah blah blah until the Creative Cows come home - but FCS is in a different league. And yes, audio - before I had Adobe Soundbooth I loved tooling around with audio in Vagueass.

    http://library.creativecow.net/tutorials/sonyvegas

  8. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50chevy View Post
    Yes, The system I built is a 8-core. Attached is a screen shot of istat menus showing the 8 cores.

    About this mac shows 2.8 ghz Quad Core Intel Xeon, 6GB 1600mhz ddr3.

    I don't need no sticking accelerator card. FCP3 after effects, adobe CS4 suite all works great.

    In all fairness adobe suite is in line with FCS. FCS may even be a better deal, with all the apps it comes with for 1k. Vs just premeire or AE for 1k from adobe.

    it's actually 4 core, but looks like 8 core because of hyperthreading on each core.
    there is not an 8 core cpu yet available, the best you can do is 6 true cores.

  9. #134

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    i wouldn't doubt it if vegas handles audio better then FCP. Vegas is meant to be a complete hobby package. FCP on the other hand is a full blooded NLE. Personally, i handle all my audio work in Logic. I find it more powerful and capable then Soundtrack Pro.

    @HueyNRolf:
    And how does one edit film with FCS or Vegas?

    here is a great digital intermediate workflow using cinema tools and fcp.


    http://documentation.apple.com/en/ci...4%26tasks=true

  10. #135
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    Alright then, Bob Sanders. Daggers away, and I'll admit that I've learned about instances in Sony Vegas. Which is cool. The next time someone brings up Mike Jones, I'll know about him too. Thanks for the heads up.

    But I still can't find the article where Mike Jones makes the comparisons you claim he does. Your first link is by someone else and the second doesn't contain an article, more like a introduction or summery.
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

  11. #136
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Benway View Post
    before I had Adobe Soundbooth I loved tooling around with audio in Vagueass.
    No offense but soundbooth is absolute garbage. They included it in CS4 and it's nothing but a waste of space.

    Try Adobe Audition.... a true and topnotch multitrack daw.

  12. #137
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HueyNRolf View Post

    But I still can't find the article where Mike Jones makes the comparisons you claim he does. Your first link is by someone else and the second doesn't contain an article, more like a introduction or summery.
    Maybe I'm wrong.... been a couple of years since I first read it..... but I thought the link was in that BLUEPROJECT page (In the first sentence).... although when I click on it, it claims "server busy"

  13. #138
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    but I thought the link was in that BLUEPROJECT page (In the first sentence).... although when I click on it, it claims "server busy"
    That's too bad, Bob.
    So no proof... Yet again.
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

  14. #139
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HueyNRolf View Post
    That's too bad, Bob.
    So no proof... Yet again.
    It said "server busy" not... "no proof" (Going to have to go back to calling you 'Wrongway').

    Not withstanding... I'm not out to "prove" anything to anybody... least of all you.

  15. #140
    Senior Member chico_stang's Avatar
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    Why are you guys defending so bad either Apple (in case of FCS) or Sony (in case of Vegas)? I mean, neither of these companies are going to pay you. They don't even care if you use their products I guess. I say: use the tool that works best for you, period.

    I have used FCP and Vegas, and in my opinion I find Vegas to be a better NLE for what I do. Reason being that everything is so intuitive that I don't have to waste time figuring out how to do something that would take a lot more time in FCP. I won't go in detail about it, but Vegas does many things better (again, in my opinion). Is it a better program? Not exactly. There is no "better" program. Both are tools meant to be used to do certain tasks. I like Vegas more, some like FCP more. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. I'm sure some people prefer Premiere for example.

    Remember, you can have the "industry standard" NLE known as FCP, but it doesn't matter if at the end of the day you either don't know how to use it or don't have the creative vision to produce a quality product. Same goes to Vegas. What I am trying to say is at the end of the day it all comes down to the final product, and that's what matters.

    So relax, stop arguing with each other and most importantly respect other people's opinions. Just because FCP is used by many professionals does not disqualify other NLEs such as Vegas as being pro or worth using. We are humans, and as such we all have different opinions and preferences.

  16. #141
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    Not withstanding... I'm not out to "prove" anything to anybody.
    So what the F are you here for?
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

  17. #142
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Still looking for the article in question, but for the meantime, here's one of Mike's along the same lines. It clearly states the FCP's weak audio and reason why.

    Monday Sep 03, 2007


    So what is the editor's job..? Vegas 8 and production philosophy.

    5diggsdigg
    Along with new and expanded features every new release of a creative software tool carries with it a dichotomy of conceptual baggage - On one hand is the promise of new creative possibilities; that the new tool will allow the creator to do things that previously they could not. On the other hand is an ingrained philosophy embodied in the tool which dictates what the tool privileges as important.

    In other words any given tool is invariably strong in the areas the designers feel most important and invariably weak in the areas perceived to be less important or of lesser significance. As Internet and software pioneer Ted nelson has commented - "you are a prisoner of each application you use. You have only the options that were given you by the developer of that application... So, what you can do in Microsoft Word is what Bill Gates has decided." This isn't rocket science or a radical idea but recognizing these inherent biases does allow for a more sophisticated and articulate rationalization of a software tool's functionality for your needs.

    For example if we look at one of the most popular editing tools on the market, Apple's Final Cut Pro, we can make a relatively clear assessment of FCPs philosophical perspective. FCP is extremely strong on sequential editing arrangement and precision adjustment between shots, it's likewise very strong on on-line/off-line workflow and film match back. Conversely, audio production tools are very weak and very basic in FCP. What this combination of biased strengths and under-developed elements tells us is actually very clear - FCP is a tool who's philosophy is focused on traditional workflow. Audio tools in FCP are poor and rudimentary not because the software designers don't know how to make good audio tools but rather because the philosophical approach of the designers is that audio 'should' be done externally to the NLE edit in a different, dedicated software system and not inside FCP itself. Simply put, FCP doesn't need sophisticated audio tools because a traditional workflow seperates audio production from visual edit. This isn't about arguing whether a tool is good or bad, better or worse, but simply about identifying the internal philosophy of the tool based on what is privileged and what is neglected.

    So with this coming week seeing the release of Sony's Vegas Pro 8 digital production software what can be deduced of Vegas' philosophical approach based on its new and existing feature set? Is Vegas pursuing a traditional philosophy of process or does it privilege and venerate a very different set of elements and thus a new conceptual paradigm of creative process?



    This release sees version 8 answer two of the most requested and criticized elements of Vegas. But its not simply what the Sony development team have added in that users wanted; rather, much more importantly, is how they've been implemented and what this says about the internal philosophy of Vegas in comparison with other NLE production systems.

    The duet of features in question that have been much requested for Vegas are an improved Titling tool and support for 10bit production formats. Until this version8 Vegas was purely an 8bit engine and the titler was often criticized as rudimentary and inflexible.

    The titler has been upgraded substantially in version8 with an entirely new titling engine called ProType. But as I said its not just that there is now improved titling options; rather ProType goes far beyond the traditional parameters of a titling tool and this changes the philosophical bent of Vegas itself.

    With ProType as much a comprehensive animation system as a titler, with individual control over each character, word and line, parent/child relationships, cascading keyframes, bezier curves, paths and generators; it moves out of the usually confined parameters in which NLEs operate. ProType in Vegas is now arguably the most sophisticated titling tool in any current NLE - and ive used and reviewed every NLE on the market.



    But this of course raises those persistent questions about the roles and responsibilities of production positions and creative processes. Just as the internal philosophy of FCP says that comprehensive audio tools are simply not necessary in the NLE because 'that's Not the editor's responsibility', so too might the same argument be made that a tool like ProType, which in truth gives After Effects a run for its money as a titling system, is outside of the editor's responsibilities. A titler that complex is really a motion graphics tool more than a titler. In which case should it be left to a motion graphic artist? What does this say about the philosophical position of Vegas and how it perceives, and even dictates, the role of the editor?

    Before answering that we should look to the second of the two much requested features of Vegas 8, that of expanded bit-depth production. Most of the worlds digital production formats are 8bit - DV, HDV, DVCProHD, AVCHD, XDCAM; all 8bit signal formats for aquistion. 10bit production, which expands the dataspace for things such as more accurate colour grading, and smoother effects production, is generally engaged by using dedicated capture hardware such those from AJA and Blackmagic to transcode the 8bit source to a 10bit file with more headroom. In many productions the advantages of 10bit might be arguably negligible but certainly there are gains to be had for fx heavy work and high precision colour grading. Of course there are also 10bit source formats for very high end work or, in a studio environment, you can shoot direct to hard drive as 10bit via a hardware capture card.

    Vegas now has an end to end 32bit floating point engine. So is this simply a case of going for bigger numbers to impress or does it say something much more integral about Vegas' philosophical and conceptual positioning in regard to production and creative process? Having an 8bit or 10bit engine meets the needs of common hardware based firewire and SDI ingest for an editing workflow, but having a 32bit floating point internal engine puts Vegas into a slightly different class - not a 'better' class as such (theres more technical juggling in here which I'll steer clear of for the moment) but a different working methodology. Editing systems have generally not sported a need for 32bit float processing but compositing and effects tools such as After Effects do, production tools beyond the edit timeline have long taken advantage of expanded bit depth and dataspace than editors have not needed because of a traditional segmentation in the workflow process.

    What this might say bout the Vegas workflow philosophy is that Vegas is a tool not at all attached or adhering to the traditional divisions between production processes. Where other NLEs reinforce traditional workflow segmentations, Vegas makes almost no distinction between where editing ends and motion graphic compositing begins. Just as the fact that Vegas has had surround sound mixing and a 24bit 96khz audio engine right on the same timeline as the video edit for the past 5 years - well ahead of audio tools in any other NLE - also shows a profound disrespect for the traditional separation of powers between video edit and sound edit.



    This integrated approach is not just in the features on offer but more importantly in the engine room mechanics Vegas employs. Embracing an open 32bit floating point engine is arguably an extremely forward thinking perspective focused on what production workflow might be in the future rather than what it is has been in the past.



    So, how does Vegas perceive editing and the role of the editor?

    Its for these reasons I have over the years found Vegas such an exciting tool to use. Whilst Adobe have shown some great direction in integration and broad delivery options (which i have written about many times), it is the developers of Vegas who have, in many ways, been the most brave and forward thinking in their design of a tool that dares to re-think the paradigm of production itself in an environment where most other NLE developers seem content with simply making old workflows digital without a change on conceptual philosophy.



    This is of course not say that an integrated, non-segmented approach to production is right for everyone or every type of production. There will always be editors who wish to remain focused. But just as an argument can be mounted that saids remaining focused as a specialist on one element of production and not distracted by extraneous elements might lead to a more refined process; there is an equally strong case to argue that an edit informed by and in tandem concert with the sound design and the visual effects is a much better informed process producing a tighter more cohesive final product.

    Both arguments have weight and creative media makers should always seek to find the process and tools that match their needs and perspective. But I would certainly say this; where once there was effectively one mode of cinematic process we now have a much wider palette or process options available to us. Subsequently the idea of an 'industry standard' tool is utterly absurd in the digital age as it implies there is only one 'correct' way to work, only one 'correct' philosophy of creative process. And that's something no creative person should stand to tolerate.
    http://blogs.digitalmediaonlineinc.c...entry/20070902

  18. #143
    Tropical Legend cgbier's Avatar
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    That guy has never heard that FCP is only part of a suite, has he?
    And he has seemingly never worked on a big project. What that guy is describing is a workflow for YouTube, broadcast or event shooters, but not for a classic feature. Therefore, the "philosophy" behind Vegas is fine. But how about network ability and team workflow which exist in Avid and FCS?
    "It is dark the other side. Very dark!" - "Oh, shut up and eat your toast!"

  19. #144
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgbier View Post
    That guy has never heard that FCP is only part of a suite, has he?
    He TEACHESfcp... he knows.

    He's stating along the same lines I stated... it's a separate app for audio. The workflow is different because in film the audio/video is most often handle as 2 completely separate entities. For what it's worth, the audio section in MC is truly awful as well... and that costs $2500

    In digital video the audio/video is most often handled as a single entity. Vegas is better at this hands down because it's all in the same app.

    Two different workflows for 2 very different ways of editing.

  20. #145
    Tropical Legend cgbier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sanders View Post

    In digital video the audio/video is most often handled as a single entity.
    You sure about that?
    "It is dark the other side. Very dark!" - "Oh, shut up and eat your toast!"

  21. #146
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgbier View Post
    But how about network ability and team workflow which exist in Avid and FCS?
    Vegas can network render... but I'm sure that's not what you mean.

    Vegas DOES have a problem integrating FCP. It's not impossible.... but it is a pain. The integration with MC is not too much of an issue particularly as of late now that Avid has opened the door to a wider scope of formats/codecs.

  22. #147
    Tropical Legend cgbier's Avatar
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    e.g. this one. Nifty piece of software.

    You can move renders back and forth between FCP and Vegas via QT, but not projects.
    Does Vegas support XML?
    Last edited by cgbier; 2010 May 16th at 10:22.
    "It is dark the other side. Very dark!" - "Oh, shut up and eat your toast!"

  23. #148
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgbier View Post
    Does Vegas support XML?
    To be honest I'm not at all sure. I have heard of a 'XML script' for getting things into fcp... but that only leads me to believe that Vegas would not support it (directly anyway).

  24. #149
    Tropical Legend cgbier's Avatar
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    XML is used for data exchange within FCS apps and to the outside world.
    "It is dark the other side. Very dark!" - "Oh, shut up and eat your toast!"

  25. #150
    Legend HueyNRolf's Avatar
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    You have to just guess which parts Bob deleted before he pasted that article in here.

    Was it the part about all the bugs and crashes, Bob?
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

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