FCP- how to see Canon HDV24F video on a CRT external monitor?

[belloq]

Mac Pro 2009, Final Cut Pro 7, brand new install- I'm trying to view Canon HDV24F (native 1080/24p) video in my Final Cut Pro timeline via s-video to a JVC TM-H150C external 15" CRT monitor (or via component if I buy the additional JVC card). Firewire through a camcorder only shows a still on the external monitor when the video is paused. The footage is from a Canon HV40 camcorder.

I've spoken with BlackMagic Design and found that the Intensity Pro card CANNOT handle display of Canon HDV24F, or any native 24fps. Apparently the 24 frames per second rate is the problem. Some people on various forums have said that it can do 24p, but BMD says it cannot, and I can't confirm anything without plunking down $200 to test it myself. With all the various flavors of HDV out there, I can't go by what another user has experienced on his system.

I don't need a card for capture, only external monitoring, so I don't want to spend a fortune just to be able to use my little CRT production monitor to view the 24p video. What can I do? Is there a setting in FCP or a plugin that can do this?

[iThinkergoiMac]

Try shooting PF24 and importing that, then removing pulldown... I think people have done that before. I don't personally have any experience with this.

[cgbier]

S-video doesn't work with an HD signal. Isn't your monitor SD?

For Macs you shouldn't look for Blackmagic, but Aja or Matrox cards.

[belloq]

I think AJA and Matrox solutions start at $400-1000 so that is out of the question.

Yes, I guess the external CRT monitor is technically SD, but resolution doesn't seem to be the problem. The problem seems to be the 24fps. The external CRT monitor can do "horizontal resolution of more than 750 lines" at vertical scanning frequency of 59.94hz and can be fed by s-video (or component if I decide to purchase the additional card.) So it's just a typical low-end CRT production monitor.

So I'm trying to get 1080p at 24fps from FCP to display on a typical CRT production monitor. If I can see the 24P within FCP on my 60hz LCD computer monitor, there has to be a free/inexpensive option to get that to display on the external CRT monitor, right?

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/s...&feature_id=03

[iThinkergoiMac]

You'll probably need to connect via component. S-Video only does interlaced video and doesn't have the bandwidth you need (nor does it support 24 fps, I don't think).

[cgbier]

If I can see the 24P within FCP on my 60hz LCD computer monitor, there has to be a free/inexpensive option to get that to display on the external CRT monitor, right?

I doubt it. CRT are rather limited in what they can do. And don't forget that they are interlaced devices. To play progressive footage is IMHO a moot attempt.
If you only want to use the monitor as external canvas, then look for an inexpensive flatscreen TV. That might not heal all your ailments, but will give at least a better picture.

I used a simple TV as canvas, but that only worked in SD. No way to get out HD.

[belloq]

Thanks. I can't believe there is no playback setting in FCP that just converts the HDV24F (1080/24p) in the timeline to SD (480/60i) playback for the external canvas monitor. It's a triple conversion, but this is 2010 and all this stuff was not cheap to begin with!

So it looks like I have to spend a lot more to get this to work on the CRT, or I just sell the brand new CRT and go with a LCD, but I would still need a card ($400) and a decent small consumer LCD monitor that can properly display 24p ($800-1100).

If I stick with 24p, the component card for the CRT is about $240, and the Matrox MX02 mini is about $410, so on top of the $500 monitor, external monitoring for 24p in FCP is quite expensive! A 30p workflow is looking better every day. If I switch to 60i/30p workflow, I think I could just buy the BlackMagic Intensity Pro for $200 and keep the CRT. But in the end, I prefer the look of true 24p, and that's what all my current footage is. So either way with 24p, I either sell the CRT and spend $1200 (net $800 more) for the card and LCD, or keep the CRT and spend $650 more to be able to use it. About the same cost either way.

At these price ranges, I would still never hope to do critical color work on either CRT or LCD. I just wanted a dedicated canvas monitor and prefer the CRT color and black qualities as an alternate to my relatively washed out LCD computer monitors. Given my low budget, I don't really care about resolution at this point. Decisions, decisions...

[cgbier]

Where is your final product to be viewed? TV, monitor, cinema?
Get a small HDTV and connect it to your DVI out.

[fastatoms]

Am I missing something here? All you want to do is hook up a CRT to your Mac Pro to view your projects? You'll need Apple's Mini DisplayPort to DVI adapter connected to Apple's DVI to Video adapter which will give you either S or Composite video to run into your monitor. Check an Apple store, or online.

You might also pick up a DVI to HDMI adapter for when you want to look at your projects on your LCD, LED or Plasma flat screen TV. You'll have to hook up the audio via RCAs.

They don't sell a Mini DisplayPort to HDMI adapter yet which will obviate the need for audio cables. You can get one of those from MacSales.com

Have fun.

[cgbier]

You are right, but that doesn't help him much if he wants to play HD on an SD monitor.

[fastatoms]

The CRT will show whatever he puts up there. It will be an extension of his desktop. He will drag his Canvas over there and whatever is in the timeline will play on the CRT.

[cgbier]

He doesn't have a CRT COMPUTER monitor (in that case you were right), but a VIDEO monitor that can only provide a lower resolution. Therefore, it won't work.
We tested that already with our old Sony broadcast monitors.

[fastatoms]

Hmmm. I had a Trinitron hooked up to my Mac for years. Couldn't used it as a computer monitor, but SD video looked fine.

[antman]

Why do you want to use an obsolete monitor to view with any ways. For the cost of a decent card you can buy a good monitor with the connections and res to display 24p in HD. I must be missing something here. Is this a case where you have to do this for a specific reason?

[cgbier]

Hmmm. I had a Trinitron hooked up to my Mac for years. Couldn't used it as a computer monitor, but SD video looked fine.

Exactly, but the OP wants to output HD ... or is looking for a way to downscale HD on the fly to make it watchable on his CRT.
When I edit SD, I also use an old TV as canvas.

[belloq]

Final output for the current project is blu-ray and web, but that doesn't matter. I have the two Mac Pro DVI outputs to two LCD monitors for my desktop/editing needs. I want to use the CRT production monitor as an external canvas monitor via whatever inexpensive method. (Firewire through camcorder didn't work and trying various settings in FCP didn't work.) Again, I prefer the CRT characteristics as an alternate to LCD. And I already own it. And, as listed a few posts up, the costs are similar for both monitor types if starting from scratch.

By the way, it appears that the MX02 Mini does not support 24p currently. The next product which does support 24P is the MX02 LE, which is about $900, which also gets close to the Kona 3 LHe price ballpark I think. That price range is completely out of the question.

[cgbier]

If your output is BluRay or Web, the CRT doesn't help you anything, as it has different color characteristics than your output. If it looks good on CRT, it doesn't mean it looks good anywhere else.

[belloq]

Understood. As I mentioned, I am not doing critical color work on it and I would like to view my projects on a different type of monitor and prefer CRT as an alternate to the LCD's I already use as computer monitors. It is my opinion that somewhere amongst various types of calibrated monitors is the truth of the image. I can't afford a $2000 plasma that can do true 1080/24p, which would be ideal, so I'm trying to stick with the SD CRT I already have.

I'll keep exploring options and will post my findings.

Any other suggestions?

[krewcial]

I'm in PAL land.

I use the Blackmagic Intensity Pro card on a Mac Pro for the exact same reason.

It's S-video output goes into a generic S-video converter with a coax output, which then goes to my small old CRT tv.

In Final Cut Pro, I choose the 1080i50 output setting (cos that's what my timeline is)
In the Blackmagic preferences I choose the "convert HD to SD" setting and "output analog signal".

These 2 settings combined give me flawless playback and frame per frame editing on my CRT monitor.

To my knowledge FCP will import your 24p footage into an interlaced timeline anyway (correct me if I'm wrong), so I see no reason why this wouldn't work for you.

[fastatoms]

Here's something else you could try. I don't have the time to hook it up to see if it will work, but in theory it should.

Canopus makes a handy little box, mine's an ADVC-100 but they have later models. Its generally used for converting analog SOURCES to DV through a FW output. To your Mac, it looks like a digital camera or deck. But it will also handle digital input and will convert it to analog for output to its S or composite video-out terminals.

My thinking here is that you could use FC's "Print to Video" command to send your sequences to the Canopus via FW which will let you view the sequences on your monitor, just as if you were laying them back to tape.

Good Luck.

[belloq]

Thanks. I actually have a Canopus ADVC 300 here somewhere. That product is about 7 years old. However, looking through its specs, it appears that it only handles NTSC/SD. It might be worth a try, but I doubt that it would be able to real-time transcode 1080/24p (or whatever FCP is sending at the firewire output) down to 480/60i at its s-video output. I don't think FCP is transcoding the 24p fully to DV before it goes over the firewire cable. That's why the CRT monitor cannot see the video properly.

Question: is that "print to video" function within FCP a real-time monitor of the timeline/canvas, or a discrete command that has to be run to see the results?

[fastatoms]

The later. I'd suggest you check Chapters 13 and 64 of the FCE4 user manual.

[cgbier]

Sorry, but I'm still puzzled how you would get progressive video on an interlaced device.

[ejolson]

Sorry, but I'm still puzzled how you would get progressive video on an interlaced device.

I think he wants to display 24p on an interlaced TV using 2:3 pulldown, for example,

1080p24->pulldown->DV->firewire->camcorder->TV

in real time for the time line preview while editing.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1003853

[cgbier]

Thanks, yeah, that's what I figured. But with the pulldown, he looses his 24p feel (and I assumed throughout this whole thread that that is what he's after).