Intermediate Codecs, Pro Res, DNxHD, Neoscene - wtf?

[sdeming]

Alright. I've just spent the last couple hours reading Eugenia's awesome blog and Googling this intermediate codec business. Frankly, I'm still lost. So an intermediate codec is what you turn your source footage (directly from the camera) into to edit with. This is useful for doing color grading, and all of the other business you'll be putting your footage through-right?

So, how come I've never heard of it before? I read the DV rebels, guide, I've been a forum member here for two years now, and I'm lost - I went to cineforms site, and I'm considering picking up Neoscene and under the specs they say:

4:2:0 → 4:2:2. Background: Most HDV and AVCHD camcorders record chroma (color) in a format known as 4:2:0. Without boring you with details, 4:2:0 chroma is half the color resolution of more professional 4:2:2 formats. When Neo Scene detects 4:2:0 chroma it properly interpolates the source chroma to 4:2:2 for more accurate color processing during editing and effects work. And if you ever "key" your material, CineForm’s chroma interpolation will substantially improve your resulting visual fidelity.

Is this what my footage has been missing? I feel like, I'm not really able to 'push' my colors, even when I shoot with good lighting, and little or no gain. Does the intermediate codec allow me to work in a bigger color space, thus making my footage that much more pliable?

I own a 7D and an HV20.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

You would only need an intermediate format for your 7D, not your HV20. I explain why intermediate formats are useful and when they should be used, here: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/1...video-formats/
You don't always need them, most of them time, you don't.

As for the 10bit colorspace, Cineform will re-encode your footage to 10bit Cineform that allows for less artifacts during color grading, but it does NOT add new colors. It can't add information that was not captured by the format. If you want more colors, you need to get a camera that captures in 10 or 12bit, like the RED.

[LOGOS PATHOS ETHOS]

it's indeed a bit confusing, but lemme summarize why you would need ANY intermediate codec:

- working with several apps, other than your NLE (i.e. capture and editing with FCP, then color work in COLOR, then doing some stuff in MOTION, etc.)

- archiving : archiving your work or creating MASTER copies of it in intermediate codecs allows you further tweaking or more options in delivery if needed in the future, like Eugenia's blog points out, you can only export in a delivery format ONCE and if you don't happen to have a master copy somewhere other than in that format, then you limit your options to only that one

- working on laptops: intermediate codecs creat larger files but are less harsh on your processor, so it's good for working smoothly on a lower end machine or laptop and/or doing an OFF-LINE edit , then take the whole bunch to a higher end machine and render, etc.


I hope I got it right too lol :-P

[LOGOS PATHOS ETHOS]

one thing that cannot be emphasized enough is: intermediate codecs DO NOT IMPROVE any footage, they can only attempt to PRESERVE as much of the original quality as possible throughout a post-production workflow that involves several steps other than editing. That's why usually intermediate codecs are not the average consumer's headache.

in most of the threads from this forum on the subject, this seems to be the main axis of confusion regarding these codecs and their alleged "superpowers" lol


:-)

[Khaver]

If you filmed in 24p with an HV20 or HV30 (not an HV40) or any other cam that wraps 24p in 60i, and you want progressive output, you will need to create an intermediate with pulldown removed.

[LOGOS PATHOS ETHOS]

yup , indeed pulldown removal is part of a complex post-production workflow already, so it calls for an intermediate codec

[sdeming]

First of all, thanks for your input. This helped clear some questions up for sure. Now, I have AE CS4, and I work with Proxie files for the 7D footage and hv20's footage with pulldown removed (converted to a .avi file). If I understand it right, working with an intermediate codec would really be the same thing essentially. Basically, a file your computer can handle easier and when it comes time to render you use the source footage.

Also, because I'm in AE all of my CC is done in layers-not on the actual footage itself. I don't think I'm loosing any color information by doing this, because I'm not re-rendering my footage to apply these effects.

Thanks again

[nxb]

Intermediate codecs are also less lossy. If you use MPEG2 or xvid and rendered more than a few times your footage would lose resolution fast. Intermediate codecs are larger because they compress less and try to keep most if not all the data. Strain on your system is probably a secondary consideration.

Proxy files are nice but they don't let you see the final product until everything is rendered. If it works for you keep going.

I go from capture > vegas for editing -> AE for comp/cc -> vegas for final assembly. Its a little redundant but then I don't have to mess with large files full of stuff I don't want in AE. I don't stop recording between every take either so it would be a nightmare in AE. With an intermediate codec, I can render at least a couple of times without loss of quality.