Rendering 1920x1080. Doing it right.
When I render in AE or Vegas I need to match 1920x1080 from the other "better" cameras I have used.
HDV is 1440x1080 1.33333 PAR. When I render the 1920x1080 I set the PAR back to 1.0. Am I doing it right? They aren't stretched anymore at that res. Any other caveats?
I'm going to take my own oft-posted advice and piggyback off this thread.
OK, I really don't know what the issue is, but I'm having trouble keeping the quality of my video after rendering. I'm working in a 1920X1080 timeline. These are my project properties:
Template: HD 1080-60i (1920X1080, 29.970 fps)
Field order: Upper frame first
PAR: 1.0000
Frame rate: 29.970 NTSC
Motion blur type: Gaussian
Deinterlace method: Interpolate fields
When I render I am using this template for BD output:
Blu-Ray 1920X1080-60i, 25mbps
Save as: Main Concept MPEG-2
Video rendering quality: best
The only changes I have made to the template are:
Field order: None (Progressive scan)
Video Quality: 31
Constant bit rate: 25,000,000
My problem is that after rendering, the video is not as clear and crisp as the original m2t files that make up the video. There is some motion blur, especially on the periphery, that degrades the overall PQ.
Are there some setting in the BD template on the Advanced Video tab that need tweaking? DC coefficient, Video format, Use closed GOPs, etc? I never mess with anything on that tab because, to be honest, I have no idea what they mean or do.
Should I be using a different codec to render to? This is a very technical video that requires the utmost in PQ, but so far it doesn't look as good as the original clips or even very HD. I rendered the same files to an SD widescreen template and aside from some flickering of parallel lines (of which there are many in this video) I'm hard pressed to see much difference quality-wise.
This is my first really big HD project and I'm about 90% through the editing, but I need to deliver it next week and not feeling very good about what I'm seeing from my rendered clips. I am previewing the renders on my 22" Asus HD LCD using both VLC and WMP, but I have also rendered some clips to BD-RE and played them on my 46" Toshiba flat panel and they look just as unimpressive. It isn't a problem with the source material as the original m2t files look stunning, crisp and clear. HELP!
Why exactly are you rendering out progressive scan?Originally Posted by CycleWriter
The settings you use (progressive output together with interpolate) tells the software to use only one field of your footage: essentially it drops the resolution to 1440*540 and then scales it up to 1920*1080. That makes footage look softer, (it shouldn't affect motion blur though). Did you shoot 60i, 30p or 24p (i assume you have NTSC model)?
- Rendering out 60i will use the full resolution, and it should work properly with all modes, but it may not be the optimal format for computer playback.
- If you shot 60i, and wish to have a 30p master, you will just have to live with the lower resolution (or use an external software that can retain better resolution while de-interpolating).
- If you shot 30p, you can set the interpolate method to none, and render out full resolution 30p.
- If you hot 24p... well, Eugenia will probably be a better guide for the proper process than me, as i'm from a PAL country ;-)
Last edited by Halsu; 2009 October 9th at 16:18.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
OK, did some more testing and Halsu appears to have hit on the problem. My misinformed belief that I had to convert my 60i footage upon rendering to 30p for a 1080p BD disk is what led me to change the Deinterlace setting. I tried rerendering using the standard BD 60i template making a few tweaks just to see if there was any difference between the quality slider and 2-pass settings and it looks like setting quality to 31 and unchecking 2-pass works best. It is an improvement over what I was getting, but still doesn't look quite as good as the raw m2t files in VLC. I can live with it (I have a buttload of clips to rerender, now!), but I still think I'm missing something that is causing me to not get equal output to what is input. Any other advice is appreciated.
I'm assuming you are using Vegas and Your source is HDV 60i:
Your project settings should be set to HDV 1440 x 1080i. Deinterlace method set to Blend. Rendering quality set to Best.
If you want the best posible encodes, then render back to HDV and make full use of Smart Rendering. Export audio as ac3 separately. Demux your video from the exported m2t and remux the video (m2v) and audio (ac3) into an .m2ts using TsMuxeR.
This will be a compliant BD file with the utmost quality you can achieve via Vegas. The problem is that you won't be able to use DVDA 5 to author, because it erroniously want's to re-encode it......!!!!!
But have no fear, you can author it with MultiAVCHD and it's free.
There is no such thing as "Idiot-Proof".........a good Idiot will get around that every time.
Yep.
Why 1440? I've done it both ways and see no difference in the renders.Your project settings should be set to HDV 1440 x 1080i. Deinterlace method set to Blend. Rendering quality set to Best.
Too much work and I don't have that program. I have almost 3 hours of video in 34 individual clips that will span 3 discs. There is no audio. Exactly what is "demuxing?" Is it just bringing the video and audio back together as a single file? There's one step I can skip.If you want the best posible encodes, then render back to HDV and make full use of Smart Rendering. Export audio as ac3 separately. Demux your video from the exported m2t and remux the video (m2v) and audio (ac3) into an .m2ts using TsMuxeR.
Yeah. why does DVDA always want to re-encode files? Is there no way to turn that off?This will be a compliant BD file with the utmost quality you can achieve via Vegas. The problem is that you won't be able to use DVDA 5 to author, because it erroniously want's to re-encode it......!!!!!
Not sure I have time to learn a new program. I need to make multi-page menus and, so far, DVDA has been very accomodating on that much.But have no fear, you can author it with MultiAVCHD and it's free.
What happens if you let DVDA5 re-encode and then swap the .clpi and .m2ts files back for the originals made by tsMuxer in blu-ray mode using the same chapter points? Do the chapters, fast forward and rewind work?
I just did a test render of a looped portion using the Sony AVC codec rendering to a 16mbps m2ts file. It looks better, but won't play without stuttering even on my quad core machine.
CW, for what it's worth, I don't touch the "quality" slider when outputting to Bluray (mpeg). I did some experimentation about a year ago and I found that the pq is adversely affected. To my eyes, it appears over-sharped with a lot of jpeg ringing. It also doubled the render time. If you can, try a test-burn with the "quality" slider on default (15?) and then maxed and see if anything improves. If need be, I find that the sharpen filter in Vegas can be useful in small doses.
This may not solve your problems but I found the testing results meaningful.
Frank
edit: I tried rendering to avchd and found the results to be much poorer than mpeg.
I didn't realize you were exporting to 1080p. Yeah, when you use interpolation, you essentially half the resolution to 540p, but you gain clarity (no ghosting). However, while it's acceptable to upsample that 540p footage to 720p, it's a stretch (literally) to export to 1080p. If you really want clarity AND quality at full 1080p, you need to only shoot progressively, not in interlaced mode. PF30 (or even better, PF25 for Blu-Rays, since BDs don't support 30p and re-interlacing to 60i is bad) is your friend if you don't want to deal with PF24's pulldown removal.
This is why if all this bothers you, you might want to consider getting a true 24p camera, like the 7D, or the HV40, or whatever Canon has in store for this January in the Las Vegas convention.
So, is blend better than interpolate in this case? I wish I had known all this before I committed to doing this project almost 2 years ago when I got the HV20.I think I'll be dumping it after this. No point in doing BD projects with this camera. 24p wouldn't have worked for this, too much handheld and panning. Thanks all!
If you are doing BD projects shot in 60i, then you simply export in interlaced, not in progressive. BDs only support 24p, 25p, and 50i/60i. Therefore, when you export to burn for BD, you MAINTAIN the interlacing aspect and you let the HDTV to do the de-interlacing (and let's not forget, different TVs have licensed or developed different de-interlacing algorithms, so some are good, some are cr@p).
Out of 60i footage, the progressive output and interpolation is good if you are exporting in 720p only, for PC/web viewing (or via an XBoX360/PS3/AppleTV on your HDTV). But if you want full 1080p, progressive output, then you must record in progressive mode, in this case in 24p for BDs (since the format stupidly doesn't support 30p out of PF30 -- HD-DVDs did support it).
You have a few choices here:
1. For a 60i-shot BD project, maintain the interlacing aspect.
2. For web/PC export, use 720p with interpolation.
3. For future recordings, use PF24, remove pulldown, and create 24p videos/BDs.
4. To save yourself the trouble of pulldown removal, you might want to sell the HV20 this winter, and get a new Canon cam that has native 24p support, e.g. a new model from the HF-S series, or the 7D.
5. If you really need 30p or 60p BD support (so you don't have to deinterlace), you need to wait for the new generation of the BD format, in 4-5 years from now. Or, you can de-interlace and burn a 720/60p BD (using the "bob" algorithm out of 60i).
Sucks, no? :-)
This is the beauty of legacy, fearful product managers, and technological shortsightness in the market, I am afraid.
Figured that out, now.
What exactly do you mean by that?You have a few choices here:
1. For a 60i-shot BD project, maintain the interlacing aspect.
Not sure 24p would work for this content.3. For future recordings, use PF24, remove pulldown, and create 24p videos/BDs.
I've already been considering the 7D and have been checking it out. Know anyone that wants to buy a low hours HV20 and a low actuations 20D?4. To save yourself the trouble of pulldown removal, you might want to sell the HV20 this winter, and get a new Canon cam that has native 24p support, e.g. a new model from the HF-S series, or the 7D.
Man, what an ordeal. My head is spinning. So, what you're telling me is that moving to Blu-Ray for 60i content was a waste of time and money at this point because I can't get true 1080P out of the equipment I have? What a crock!5. If you really need 30p or 60p BD support (so you don't have to deinterlace), you need to wait for the new generation of the BD format, in 4-5 years from now. Or, you can de-interlace and burn a 720/60p BD (using the "bob" algorithm out of 60i).
Sucks, no? :-)
This is the beauty of legacy, fearful product managers, and technological shortsightness in the market, I am afraid.
Thanks, Eugenia and everybody else. I think I'm on the right track, now. I'm burning a BD test disc in DVDA with multiple-page menus. Should be done in a couple of hours. I still have to rerender all the incorrectly done project files, but at least I can see what I've got up to this point.
Frank, I don't know why DVDA always rerenders my video files. Any clues?
Well, as Eugenia pointed out, it may be because you're trying to feed it 30p. I just tried a few sample renders and put them into DVDA. The only ones that didn't need re-rendering (as seen using the "optimize disc" function) were the ones rendered out using the default bluray 1440 x 1080 60i template - i.e. 60i. You can change the bitrate, CBR vs VBR or the quality settings. But, if you adjust the field order, DVDA will re-render it back to 60i. Also, checking "reduce deinterlace flicker" triggers a re-render.
This should be easy. You've already got 1440 x 1080 60i content. Leave that g.d. quality slider alone, render out at 60i and it should be quite fast. DVDA shouldn't have to re-render your now compliant content, so you just have to wait for it to render your menus. An evening should be enough.
No offense, but I find it a little odd that you're trying to render out at 30p. I can't count the number of times you've written that 60i is perfectly acceptable, if not preferred, for output on TV's. Trust me, 60i looks great. I'm doing more and more games on DVD-R with bluray content for parents and they're all pretty happy with - especially after seeing the DVD version. I know you've been busting your hump on this project & I wish you good luck with it.
Last edited by Video Frank; 2009 October 9th at 22:01.
>>1. For a 60i-shot BD project, maintain the interlacing aspect.
>What exactly do you mean by that?
As VideoFrank explained above, if you shot in 60i, then you should export in 60i for DVD/BD. Not in 30p progressive. BDs only support 24p/25p regarding progressiveness, and you didn't shoot in a frame rate that's compatible with that frame rate. So, if you export with one of the BD templates for 1440x1080 at 60i, it should be just fine and DVDA won't re-encode (provided that your HDTV and your client's HDTV doesn't suck in terms of de-interlacing algorithms used).
Fixing the interlacing problem is easy, you just buy a camera that shoots progressively in 30p at full 1080p. But exporting as such at the end is not supported by the BD standard, because SONY was short-sighted about it. So essentially, regarding progressive footage on a BD, you are stuck with 24p. Otherwise, just 60i.
That's why I don't burn any discs, but I just export in 24/30p and then use my PS3 to feed the HDTV directly. No BD protocol problems this way. The PS3 can do up to 1080/30p at 30 mbps.
Does anyone know what frame rates the Chinese HD-DVDs support? Does it support 30p like the HD-DVD standard did?
http://arstechnica.com/business/news...n-in-china.ars
Last edited by ejolson; 2009 October 10th at 00:57.
I wish HD-DVD won. It supports 30P AFAIK. Check your specific player. Are they making knockoffs in China along with blank disks? If so I'd get one before blue ray.
60i motion looks like home video to me. I despise 60i. I've never had a problem with panning on 24p but I'm probably not shooting what you are. I hope it makes you money.
Try shooting a hockey game in 24p. Played back in slo-mo, you could go out for a smoke in between frames!
I need it to look like home video. This is extremely detailed architectural footage presented in documentary format. It is used by construction professionals and inspectors to verify very complex systems that are now covered up by sheetrock and other materials. Shallow DOF not welcome.
Oh, and yes, it makes me a lot of money. This is my first project in HD, though.
OT:
I believe that's a good decision. In my opinion, the 24p / 25p / very shallow DOF look is way overused nowadays. It's a nice effect, yes, and i use it often too if the style calls for it, but come on, not every project needs to look like an artsy student film.***
50i / 60i has "authenticity" and "realism", the feel of actually being there, the feel of the footage being documentation instead of fabrication. Many, many projects benefit from this more than from a "film look", which distances the wiever from the subject, puts the wiever in the "i'm watching fiction" mood.
Both have their uses.
*** Yes, student film. The real Hollywood movies do not have a shallow DOF, they have a controlled DOF. And in most cases, that is actually pretty deep compared to the footage we see from people with video DSLR's or 35mm adapters. The DOF craze has gone to the absurd length of people blaming actual Hollywood blockbusters for having a "home video look". Is that silly or what?
Last edited by Halsu; 2009 October 10th at 05:32.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Whether it works or not, that is a lot of wasted time.
Hey you nerds, get your own thread!
OK, I changed the project properties to HDV 1440X1080-60i and am rendering to the BD 1440X1080-60i 25mbps template, the only change being moving the quality slider to 31, just as before. The resulting files look great! One question, why are the render times now significantly longer than when I was rendering to the 1920X1080-60i template? Is that the difference between using CBR at 25mbps and VBR with a 30mbps limit with an average of 25mbps? Does it take more effort to render a VBR file compared to a CBR file?
Tomorrow I will see if I can burn a BD disc in DVDA with these new files and not have them rerender.
I know I can batch render clips in Vegas, but is there a way to batch render several veg files?
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