And how is this not following some thing more blindly than the RED fan boys! You talk about vapor ware, and you defend it with dream-ware.But Canon has the ability to do all that for $10k or even $5k. And I don't see why they wouldn't.
I hope to god Canon comes out with a 10 bit RAW codec for NAB 2010, I highly doubt it, and even if they did, it would destroy their 10k + cameras. I highly doubt they will.
I don't know about you, but to me that Scarlet is easily worth double - $6k. The Canon 1ds or whatever that shoots super low-light is like $4999 for the body and only does 1080p with crappy auto-focus. Granted, if the Scarlet doesn't make an appearance until late 2010 or 2011, who knows what will be released from other companies between then and now. The 1ds does like 6400 ISO for low-light and while the EPIC does 8000, so if Canon has a year to play catch-up, I'm sure there will be some competition. But then again, Canon is a big company, and big companies rarely have their act together - they're not even releasing 24p until next year, which says something.Originally Posted by Duke
At any rate, window shopping is great
LOL, exactly...
I think they'll do great! At any rate, Jim Jannard has billions to play with, so even if RED is never, ever profitable, it would hardly be a ripple in his personal wealth. Also, I believe RED camera numbers are over 7,000 now, so if my math is right (7,000 units @ $17,500 each), they've made $122,500,000 ($122 million) in sales to date. That's not too shabby!
The difference is that Canon has the experience to not go for crazy out of this world products, and they have the technology/R&D power too. If Canon was RED, I wouldn't be too afraid for them, but RED is currently just semi-living off of Jim's cash. This can't be sustainable for too long, even if Jim has lots of money. At some point, he will realize what he's doing.
REd guys are just bluffing and bluffing.. Vaporware, CGware .. I'm so tired of this.. Canon 7D here i go!!!!!
Personally I'm just realy gutted that it has gone from $3.5K, which was just about affordable for me, to $5k? $6? $10 - either way its no longer affordable.
I am not sure what to do now. I love my HV20 but wish it had a larger sensor. maybe I will wait until Canon's anouncement in the spring. More likeley I will sell some stuff and get the 7d.
I love the red concept but feel let down by the massive price rises.
Have they? How do you know?
From what i read from the announcement, nothing much has changed.
There hasn't been anything that would negate the earlier fixed Scarlet bundle still being an option - it used to be $3750, now there's a "mild increase in price", which can be anything from $0.01 up after all.
The bundle may very well be quite near the 4K mark.
Also, i'm pretty sure you can use 3rd party accessories with the brains, if you decide to roll your own system: instead of using $900 Red LCD, you can use any monitor that ingests HDMI. You probably can replace the somewhat costly Red brand batteries with cheaper, more generic ones. The brain has a Rec button on the side, so it might even be that you don't NEED Redmote or the side handle to shoot. And so on.
Patience, grasshopper.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
I wouldn't be surprised if the actual sales were double that. You forget that in addition to the Red One bodies, they've sold a lot of accessories to go with those cameras.Also, I believe RED camera numbers are over 7,000 now, so if my math is right (7,000 units @ $17,500 each), they've made $122,500,000 ($122 million) in sales to date. That's not too shabby!
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Well, the fastest currently available Canon cameras have sensors and electronics that perform roughly at 1/10 of the speed the currently available Red camera does... and about 1/20th of the speed of the future Red cameras, according to the specs.
Are you saying Canon has the technology, but doesn't release it? Or what?
What do you base this assumption on? My guess is, Red One has been a profitable venture for the company, and the future cameras will be even more so.If Canon was RED, I wouldn't be too afraid for them, but RED is currently just semi-living off of Jim's cash. This can't be sustainable for too long, even if Jim has lots of money. At some point, he will realize what he's doing.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Halsu, you are absolutely right in that after the article we know nothing more about the Scarlet than we already knew, other than it will cost a little more and have a couiple more features.
What has upset everyone is that it was another announcement of an announcement. No dates, not firm prices, no current hope of buying a Scarlet. People feel gypped, again. I think that is a failure in their marketing plan, not necessarily a failure in their R&D.
Plus, since the Epic will come first in four stages. It all comes down to this:
It doesn't matter what Red promised a year or two ago. What matters is how Reds cameras compare to other cameras when you can buy both cameras. (Releases to current Red owners don't count if you aren't one.)
You can't shoot a movie with a spec sheet. Even though it was intended as semi-sarcastic humor, what I said previously about the 7D currently being a better camera than a Scarlet is absolutely true. Right now you can't make a movie with a Scarlet, you can with a 7D.
Everyone should buy a camera now, shoot movies, learn and in a year or two then they can compare whatever Red is offering with what everyone else is offering at that time.
Certainly Canon and Panny's offerings will continue to improve in increments. They always have. Certainly Red's spec sheet will change. It always has.
If Canon comes out with an A1 with a 2/3" or APS-C sized sensor, we'll see. They have the ability to do that now. They have a year or so to perfect it, and if Canonrumors is right they've been working on it.
We thought the Scarlet would be the equalizer that would allow really low budget Indies to make film quality video. It may be Canon's or Pannys instead, especially if the Scarlet goes up much in price. If the 5D2, 7D and 1D4 didn't have the aliasing due to bin-ing Scarlet would have been very limited as a Red project.
Last edited by Duke; 2009 October 31st at 10:26.
I agree with Duke get a camera now and shoot movies. That's absolutely right. I was pretty disappointed that RED didn't say Scarlet is $3k total coming out tomorrow and Jordan Service here is your free camera! That would be awesome. However the 7d answered a huge demand, native shallow Dof abilities (along with great low light and 60p.) That however, was already available through adapters. Shooting in RAW is only available in super high end cameras, the jump from going to a 4:2:0 codec to 4:4:4 or whatever RAW converts to is huge. That's why I will root for RED. If they do not pull it off I still have a great HV20 which is so ridiculous compared to what you could buy even in 2005. Canon is a great company, Panasonic is a great company, Sony is a great company, Red is a great company. I will pick the best camera I can with in a price range.
However for narrative work no one is touching the RED one in price/ performance. ENG is totally different.
FD mounts...it was first announced,and then pulled.
Wait, they banned you, Eugenia, on RED.com?
Damn, they're thin skinned.
Long live hv20.com (& any of its reincarnations)!
Its sort of fun to watch all fanbois tripping all over themselves. Kind of like a Keystone Cops movie.
I was just looking at the release again, scroll down to just before the module prices and there is the order of release for the first 4 models.
http://red.cachefly.net/OctoberPost.jpg
Epic-x S35
Epic S35
Scarlet fixed & Scarlet 2/3" interchangeable, full details Nov 30th.
Epic FF35
Scarlet FF35
Epic645
Epic617
I sincerly hope Nov 30 isn't another announcement of an announcement.
Okay, so they decided not to offer a RED-branded one, but what other camera is as 'mount agnostic' as RED One? It ships with an ARRI-style PL or optional Nikon or SONY-style B4 mount from the factory, plus I know of Canon, Panavision, BNC and Oct-19 mounts that are "RED approved" (and so won't void the warranty). There may well be others, too. If you don't mind about the warranty, P+S Technik's IMS (interchangeable mount system) lets you switch quickly between all of the above, plus C-mount and Leica.
(And BTW, I agree Eugenia was treated unfairly at REDuser: when a third party starts a new thread to link to her blog and ridicule her opinions stated therein, IMHO she damn well has every right to go there and defend herself. Says me, the moderator who banned her was out of line.)
EDIT: Having caught up on the thread, I'm glad to see several other REDusers who didn't necessarily agree with her views also disagreed with Eugenia's ban, now overturned.
Last edited by Erik Bien; 2009 October 31st at 17:49.
That's the only thing that really bugged me - I was expecting actual release dates. Even if they said July 9th, 2011, then I could have set that as a savings date and gone with a 7D or something. I got a break off work so I could be there for the annoucement...so that disappointing somewhat. But having autofocus on Nikon & Canon lenses and touchscreen-focus mooooore than makes up for it
Yep - i guess some people are counting a lot on Scarlet. I personally AM a Scarlet geek, it's an extremely cool concept and i can't wait to get one on my hands...
...but to me it's also just another tool. I've been working a long time without a Scarlet (or any other pro camera in my personal posession). A few months or a year or whatever is not much of a dealbreaker to me - i keep working on a daily basis, using the tools i have at hand, as i have always done.
When i can actually buy a Scarlet, i'll make the decision if it feels wiser to own one than to rent. I'm in no hurry, i have no fantasies of owning one camera or another making a big difference in my career.
Well, i assume most users here already own HV20 or similar. Why not make movies with those? I know i do.Everyone should buy a camera now, shoot movies, learn and in a year or two then they can compare whatever Red is offering with what everyone else is offering at that time.
The problem is, a Sony/Canon/Pana A1 -like 2/3" camcorder with a decent codec would very likely cost at least $15 000, i'd estimate.If Canon comes out with an A1 with a 2/3" or APS-C sized sensor, we'll see. They have the ability to do that now. They have a year or so to perfect it, and if Canonrumors is right they've been working on it.
It's not the camera. You can make professional quality, theater-worthy, film-like video with HV20. If you can't, buying a new camera won't help much.We thought the Scarlet would be the equalizer that would allow really low budget Indies to make film quality video. It may be Canon's or Pannys instead, especially if the Scarlet goes up much in price. If the 5D2, 7D and 1D4 didn't have the aliasing due to bin-ing Scarlet would have been very limited as a Red project.
This said, there's much more to the difference between VDSLR's and Scarlet than aliasing... even if the DSLR's had no aliasing or skew issues, Scarlet would sell s**tloads. Maybe not to the indie folks, but to the working professionals and rental houses.
Last edited by Halsu; 2009 October 31st at 21:44.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
You definitely can make a great movie with an HV20, IF:
a) you're not shooting much in low light. (gain will kill you, as will resetting the camera for each take. Eventually you'll forget, probably on the most important take)
b) you're not moving much. (skew and jello will kill you, as will eliminating all shots with movement beyond a certain speed. On the best shot you'll pan too fast.)
c) you're not pointing from a room to a window. (exposure changes will kill you when you find out you weren't locked for exposure and your lead amateur actor just gave a fabulous performance by accident that they can never duplicate)
d) you don't need DOF control for artistic reasons. (or you can spend more on a Brevis or Letus than the camera cost, then buy lenses on top of that.)
e) you don't mind the shooting and planning taking 2-3 times as long as you plan shots and build devices to get around the lack of manual controls. Thats on top of the normal scouting locations, props, makeup, etc. Then factor into that the cost of actors. If you can't pay actors much, if any, they will quit, leave, change their hair, etc. when it ends up taking so long. Then where are you?
There's a reason people don't go around making features with an HV20, because it's like beating your head against the wall. It feels so good when you stop. (For shorts using your friends as actors and learning its perfect.)
Been there, done that, have the T-shirt. Don't want to do that again.
As for a 2/3" camera costing $15k or more, an Ex-1 costing $6k going from a 1/2" sensor to a 2/3" sensor isn't going to cost that much more. If they offered one right now for $7,000 I'd buy it tomorrow (despite 4.2.0, SxS cards and other limitations.) That would probably impact a large segment of the rest of their CineAlta line though, so don't hold your breath.
When I reach the multi-million dollar film level, if any of us ever do, then I'll worry about what the big budget pros are looking for in their cameras. If Red decides the money is in the high end cameras, great for them but its not of much interest to me any more than a Lamborgini. Nice to look at but I'll never get the chance to use it.
Last edited by Duke; 2009 November 1st at 07:17.
If you look at real films, real low light shots are very rare. What look like low light shots, are shots that are lit to look like low light.
I don't get what you mean by resetting for each take, but this sounds like you're describing some kind of an user error - which is not the fault of the camera, but the photographer.
There are "good" and "bad" panning speeds when shooting film also. Part of the skillset of a good photographer is to know them, and plan the shots accordingly.b) you're not moving much. (skew and jello will kill you, as will eliminating all shots with movement beyond a certain speed. On the best shot you'll pan too fast.)
I've only found HV20 skew to be a problem in one project, when it was rigged the camera to a car (Rolls Royce, no less BTW). In every other project skew has been a non-issue.
Again, if the photographer makes huge beginner mistakes like that, switching to another camera will not help.c) you're not pointing from a room to a window. (exposure changes will kill you when you find out you weren't locked for exposure and your lead amateur actor just gave a fabulous performance by accident that they can never duplicate)
You can get usably shallow DOF with plain vanilla HV20, especially when using ND filters.d) you don't need DOF control for artistic reasons. (or you can spend more on a Brevis or Letus than the camera cost, then buy lenses on top of that.)
Besides, ultra shallow DOF is vastly overrated, a telltale sign of a "film-like wannabe" photographer
(I'm only half joking)
What takes so long for you?e) you don't mind the shooting and planning taking 2-3 times as long as you plan shots and build devices to get around the lack of manual controls. Thats on top of the normal scouting locations, props, makeup, etc. Then factor into that the cost of actors. If you can't pay actors much, if any, they will quit, leave, change their hair, etc. when it ends up taking so long. Then where are you?
I can set up HV20 for a shoot pretty much in the same time as i.e. EX1, Z1 or similar, or a 2/3" broadcast camera (assuming no need for back focus adjustment), and much faster than a film camera or i.e. Red One.
Of course there are much better options out there for most production work. And there's a grain of truth in what you say.There's a reason people don't go around making features with an HV20, because it's like beating your head against the wall. It feels so good when you stop. (For shorts using your friends as actors and learning its perfect.)
My point is simply that if you can't make professional quality results with HV20, getting a new camera will not remedy that. You will have a more controllable camera and yada yada, but the resulting film isn't going to look THAT much better than the HV20 results. Usually 99% of the look comes from what's in front of the camera (what and how you shoot), not from technical details.
However, if you CAN make pro looking stuff with HV20, you will be able to get those results more robustly and controllably with a pro camera.
I'm coming to the equation from opposite direction than most HV20 users i assume: i've shot with big broadcast cameras for over 20 years, and that's what i'm used to. Just in the last few years i've started using smaller cameras like Z1 and EX1 - and HV20 (which was originally bought to be a cheap tape deck, the fact it shoots pretty pictures is a bonus).Been there, done that, have the T-shirt. Don't want to do that again.
I happily shoot with HV20 when appropriate - that includes quite a lot of professional work for broadcast too. But if need be, i switch to bigger gear. Right tool for the job as they say.
Don't hold your breath indeed - AFAIK currently, cheapest low end 2/3" HD cameras cost about $15 000 - without a lens, which will easily up the cost by $10 000 or more.As for a 2/3" camera costing $15k or more, an Ex-1 costing $6k going from a 1/2" sensor to a 2/3" sensor isn't going to cost that much more. If they offered one right now for $7,000 I'd buy it tomorrow (despite 4.2.0, SxS cards and other limitations.) That would probably impact a large segment of the rest of their CineAlta line though, so don't hold your breath.
I'd assume the rent will be similar to Red One, maybe a little more - definitely under $ 1000 a day. That's not too a big percentage of even a lower mid range music video or TV commercial budget.When I reach the multi-million dollar film level, if any of us ever do, then I'll worry about what the big budget pros are looking for in their cameras. If Red decides the money is in the high end cameras, great for them but its not of much interest to me any more than a Lamborgini. Nice to look at but I'll never get the chance to use it.
Which means, i'm pretty sure i'll get to shoot with Epic in the next year or so. Not a multimillion dollar movie, but rather a $ 10 000 music video or a TV spot.
Last edited by Halsu; 2009 November 1st at 08:04.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
This couldn't be more true.My point is simply that if you can't make professional quality results with HV20, getting a new camera will not remedy that. You will have a more controllable camera and yada yada, but the resulting film isn't going to look THAT much better than the HV20 results.
Just finished reading the Eugenia thread in Reduser.net
My opinion: Red is a religion
I still have my HV20 and still use is as both a B-roll camera and a deck. It's a great little camera within its limitations. I just don't want to shoot an entire big project on it when for a tiny bit more my primary camera can have manual controls that I can set and leave, not do the cell phone trick each time.
I don't think low light or DOF are gimmicky, but I would say that slo-mo, one of the features often touted for the Scarlet, is gimmicky. I'm not really interested in music videos or TV commercials.
As for rentals, that works for the bigger guys, but at a thousand a day (or even $750 a day) many great movies like Paranormal, El Mariachi, Prime and others would not have been made.
Most features have 20 odd day shooting schedules plus other expenses. If your total budet is $10,000 and you need to spread the shooting schedule over a year because you have a day job you aren't going to rent for $1,000 a day.
Last edited by Duke; 2009 November 1st at 08:47.
I have not seen it posted anywhere yet but here are some great tutorials for some of you who don't already know. I thought it might add a little to what Halsu and Duke are discussing. That first one is actually a Red Camera and most f the others a 7D (also an A1 is thrown in there). They are pretty cool, check em out:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZA9r0iWbdw"]YouTube - Cinematography / Film Look / Shot Design - Tutorial # 1[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5587PORymWI&annotation_id=annotation_99660 1&feature=iv"]YouTube - Cinematography / Film Look / Lighting / Shot Design - Tutorial # 2[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWyuBsHJ60&annotation_id=annotation_74360 0&feature=iv"]YouTube - Cinematography / Film Look / Lighting / Shot Design - Tutorial # 3[/ame]
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
There's no need to use cell phone trick - i've never used it, yet i can control the camera just fine, repeatably, every time. Getting the exposure i want is easy enough, setting it up after a battery change or whatever takes ten seconds. The main difference to using full manual camera is having to check the aperture / shutter speed with the photo button.
Hardly a big problem.
Well, ultra-shallow DOF is gimmicky. Controlled DOF is not, of course - but if you look at hollywood blockbusters, that means much steeper DOF than what people seem to think.I don't think low light or DOF are gimmicky, but I would say that slo-mo, one of the features often touted for the Scarlet, is gimmicky. I'm not really interested in music videos or TV commercials.
El Mariachi was shot on 16mm - i'm pretty sure the costs for the camera, stock and post were high enough to make renting a Red One or similar seem dirt cheap... especially as the rates go down considerably when the camera is rented for longer periods of time than a single day.As for rentals, that works for the bigger guys, but at a thousand a day (or even $750 a day) many great movies like Paranormal, El Mariachi, Prime and others would not have been made.
Based on the trailer, Paranormal on the other hand looks like it would have looked just as good if not better if it was shot on HV20 ;-)
I tried to find some info about Prime - all i found was a Meryl Streep / Uma Thurman movie - is this the one you mean? I couldn't locate info about the shooting format, but i doubt a few hundred bucks a day would be a deal breaker on a project with this caliber actresses...
Well, 10 000 sounds more like an one or two day day shoot than a feature... i assume you talk about projects where nobody gets salary, and it shoot mostly with available light etc.?Most features have 20 odd day shooting schedules plus other expenses. If your total budet is $10,000 and you need to spread the shooting schedule over a year because you have a day job you aren't going to rent for $1,000 a day.
A project like that sounds like a prime candidate for shooting with HV20 or similar.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
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