Zoom H2 as external mic

[nolonemo]

Yes, very informative. And now I see why my At822 mic is not great with the
Zomm H2. Now I can check and see how it works with the Canon HV20. If it works ok, then i have two possibilities: H2 as the main mic and AT822 as a backup directly to the camera in case the H2 loses power, etc.

I have the AT822, and it works great with the HV20, except that it really picks up the motor noise well in quiet surroundings. You will want to have the mic at least 10" off camera, and preferrably slightly in front, in that situation (for example, recording a soloist before a silent audience. If you are in a situation with more ambient noise, it's not as noticable. I recorded a pop music show in a small club with the mic shockmounted only 2" above the camera and didn't notice any motor noise on the first playback on the TV (with sound through my good HT system), though I bet I might hear a little occasionally if I listened with headphones.

Your plan to use the At-822 into the camera and the Zoom off camera as a backup is a good one, I think. The Zoom sound isn't as "alive" as the AT822, but sounds quite good nonetheless.

BTW, the AT-822 will work fine with the H2 if you use a pre-amp. I have a small battery-powered one, Rolls MX34, that is only around $100 and does the job. What I haven't done is to see whether the AT-822 into the HV-20 or the AT-822 into the H2 via the Rolls gives the best overall sound (the noise floor of the HV20 audio circuitry might be a factor, I haven't had the camera a long time, so I haven't done that test yet).

[arenson]

That's good news, except that it is one more thing to carry around, but still good news. Now I am wondering (but not so seriously) if there were a portable mixer that took all 4 mics of the Zoom and the 2 of a mic lilke the at822 and gave you 6!

More seriously, what about mics that are unpowered, like the Shure Beta 58A and beta 57A (Supercardioid, Dynamic), both of which I have (don't have the right cables, but)...Something tells me that these, even more than the AT822, would need a pre-amp to get enough usable signal.

[GlennG]

I'm really impressed by the H2. Is the H4 even better? Which one will work better as a second mic for the HV20?

[RadioGuy]

I'd go with the H2 as the H4 is bigger but does have xlr's but if you do a google search h2 has addressed some of the audio probs that the h4 was known for.

Have done corp type interviews with the H2 and it is an incredible piece of gear for the price. I replaced the h2 stand with a small mini tripod (h2 screws right in) and makes for a nice out of camera interview mic. Batteries last for four hours so I just let it run as I shoot.

Cheers

[tlindaas]

Forgive me for repeating what I'm sure many of you already know, but I just found out, so I thought I should share.

If you set the H2s automatic gain control off (default) and the HV20s attenuator on, the medium gain setting on the H2 really covers most of the ground you are likely to encounter. If you calibrate ("pair") the HV20 to the H2s sound level, you don't have to fiddle with the audio levels on the HV20 ever again, except when you record loud concerts. In that case just flip the H2s sensivity setting to "low".

Poor man's calibration: Knock the H2 gently towards the table and adjust the HV20s audio level so that it matches that of the H2.

When I first tried and consequently rejected manual gain, I had only the HV20 to experiment with. I did not find the sweet spot (where the H2s "medium" gain setting is located, as far as I can tell), and also I had some unhealthy baggage regarding what constitutes good sound from my music recording days. When recording a singer or an instrument, you always adjust the gain level upwards until just before the loudest note clips. You want the best signal to noise ratio as you can get, and I thought autogain was the lazy, easy way of getting to this, appropriate to my product really, a video diary of my backpacking around the world.

Regrettably I was also too lazy to check my recordings, and when I did, it struck me that it is rather exhausting to have to listen to the audio pushing towards the maximum limit all the time, no matter what you are recording. It sounds unnatural and innerving, even though you have a perfect technical signal to noise ratio. You also make a lot of unnecessery work for yourself in post, because you hate that that aircon sounds like a jetplane whenever nobody's talking.

A lower signal to noise ratio is perfectly OK, the lower signals are meant to stay low "in the mix" anyway; you don't ever make the aircon the "lead singer" (or main talker).

I am now a manual gain convert. I loose a perfect signal to noise ratio for non-important sounds, but instead I get a sound level that sounds natural and is much easier to adjust in post. It takes maximum 5 minutes to calibrate the HV20 to the H2s sound level, and when you are done, you can relax sound wise from that on. Flip the switch to low sensitivity when you are at a concert or something similar (you see the levels peaking on the HV20), else just leave it on medium (no need to use the "high" setting, it seems that setting only raises the levels digitally, and this is better done in a controlled post environment).

[_gl]

I was just looking for an ambient sound stereo mike, and the Sony ECM-MS957 was well liked, so I bought that. I've only had once chance to try it (indoors), so far I really like it.

Then I found out about the H2, and now I'm wondering if I couldn't get similar quality from it. As it can be used wired with the HV20, there's no drift to worry about, and even wireless you should be able to sync to the internal mic's track as long as your clips aren't too long. And the option to record in surround is _very_ tempting.

The dealbreaker for me though is the stereo quality - does anyone have an outdoor clip they could upload (pref. 120deg)? I'd also like to hear the AT822. I'll be able to get a Sony clip in the next day or so.

Ideally the audio would be a straight extract from the HV20, not recompressed with another codec - either demuxed, or just converted to .wav.

Anybody game?

[_gl]

Ideally the audio would be a straight extract from the HV20, not recompressed with another codec - either demuxed, or just converted to .wav.

... and if possible with AGC off, Wind attenuation off, and for the H2 the recommended settings (L or M, digital level @ 100).

[_gl]

I've uploaded my Sony ECM-MS957 clips:

WAV versions (18.6 meg)
MP3 versions (3.5 meg).



The Sony is a Mid-Side (MS) stereo mic, has two modes (upright and vertical) & two stereo widths (90 and 120deg). Both clips are 120. There's some wind noise as I don't have a windshield yet.

Recorded on the HV20 in DV mode (as DV audio isn't compressed), then extracted to .wav using VirtualDub. Settings were: no attentuation, manual level @ -12db. No editing (except short fade in/outs).

Clip 1: upright - traffic. Be careful, I wasn't expecting an ambulance to fly right past me . It totally overloads, but the HV20 seems to have a limiter built in so it's still usable.

Clip 2: vertical - from the same spot/same level, things had quietened down so you can listen for hiss.

[_gl]

Any chance of some clips? If you can't post one, how do mine compare to your results?

I've found some H2 recordings, and I'm starting to think that the Sony produces better quality - certainly more presence and a bit more refined.

[nolonemo]

Any chance of some clips? If you can't post one, how do mine compare to your results?

I've found some H2 recordings, and I'm starting to think that the Sony produces better quality - certainly more presence and a bit more refined.

That's certainly the case with my AT-822 -- of course, we are both talking about microphones that cost more than the Zoom, so I'd hope so!

[_gl]

That's certainly the case with my AT-822 -- of course, we are both talking about microphones that cost more than the Zoom, so I'd hope so!

I was tempted to get the 822, it's highly regarded but kinda ugly . How do you rate it compared to the Sony?

[nolonemo]

I was tempted to get the 822, it's highly regarded but kinda ugly . How do you rate it compared to the Sony?

Never compared them. I was originally considering the Sony as an upgrade to my ECM-908, and asked about it on the Sony Vegas user forums. The first person to respond said I'd be better off spending the extra $50 to get the 822, and a bunch of people chimed in raving about the 822, so I went with that. I admit that the Sony is nice and sleek looking, but I'm in love the way the 822 looks too.

I believe the 822 is an X-Y configuration instead of mid-side, but apart from that....

[_gl]

Never compared them.

Take a listen to my Sony samples a few posts up.

I was originally considering the Sony as an upgrade to my ECM-908, and asked about it on the Sony Vegas user forums. The first person to respond said I'd be better off spending the extra $50 to get the 822, and a bunch of people chimed in raving about the 822, so I went with that.

I think I read that thread in my research...

[nolonemo]

[QUOTE=_gl;61508]Take a listen to my Sony samples a few posts up.
QUOTE]

I don't think that would tell very much -- way too many variables in setups.

[jabloomf1230]

I also want to put in a vote for the Zoom H2. Of the options discussed in this thread, it is easily the most expensive option (~$185-200 US), but as zephyrnoid pointed out in his testing post in a previous thread, it is also very versatile. One additional use that I have made of my H2 is to clap synchronize the recording and record with the Zoom H2 in 4 channel mode, with the H2's line out connected to the mic in on the HV20.

The resultant HV20 audio is obviously not 4 channel (duhh!), but after capturing the m2t file (actually, I do it as Cineform AVI), I also upload the dual WAV files (one contains FR & FL, the other has RR & RL) via USB from the Zoom H2. Then I combine the m2t file and the two WAV files as four separate tracks in Vegas. Once I get them all synced up, I use the Vegas audio editing features to create a 5.1 output without the original HV20 audio. So far, it's been more of an exercise to demonstrate the concept rather than anything else, but it may have potential for burning BluRay discs in the future.

[hartsook]

I thought i saw that one can use the H2 as an Ipod...and the manual does not seem to say you can't, but so far every Mp3 or Wav file I have moved over does not play. Invalid file. Am I missing something?

I have found that I need to re-encode some mp3's to get the H-2 to play them. The magic combination seems to be 44.1, Variable Bit Rate - 192Kbps, and stereo. Any variation from these settings and I get the dreaded Invalid file!

[jabloomf1230]

The SD card that came with my H2 is a pile of junk and slow. Get a fast 2GB SD (or 4GB SDHC, Class 6) card and the "Invalid File" errors should diminish with non-native mp3 files. Notice I said "diminish". Generally, stay at 44.1 and the middle of the range of bitrates in stereo (as hartsook wrote) and you should have far fewer errors with non-native mp3 files.

The H2 really doesn't make a good iPod surrogate, as the almost illegible display is only for people with X Ray vision. It obviously can't make playlists and it can't recognize albums, unless they exist as one large mp3 file. Speaking of iPods, I'm surprised no one has suggested using an iPod in conjunction with the HV20. Logitec (not Logitech, unfortunately) makes a stereo microphone for iPods:

http://nexus404.com/Blog/2008/03/06/...-to-your-ipod/

as does Belkin and Griffin. Although I haven't tried any of them, in theory, you could use your iPod in the same manner as the Zoom H2. If anyone has tried this option, I would interested in what the sound quality is like.

[dditzler]

The SD card that came with my H2 is a pile of junk and slow. Get a fast 2GB SD (or 4GB SDHC, Class 6) card and the "Invalid File" errors should diminish with non-native mp3 files. Notice I said "diminish". Generally, stay at 44.1 and the middle of the range of bitrates in stereo (as hartsook wrote) and you should have far fewer errors with non-native mp3 files.

The H2 really doesn't make a good iPod surrogate, as the almost illegible display is only for people with X Ray vision. It obviously can't make playlists and it can't recognize albums, unless they exist as one large mp3 file. Speaking of iPods, I'm surprised no one has suggested using an iPod in conjunction with the HV20. Logitec (not Logitech, unfortunately) makes a stereo microphone for iPods:

http://nexus404.com/Blog/2008/03/06/...-to-your-ipod/

as does Belkin and Griffin. Although I haven't tried any of them, in theory, you could use your iPod in the same manner as the Zoom H2. If anyone has tried this option, I would interested in what the sound quality is like.

I have a friend who had the Belkin unit I to record with the iPod. I've listened to a few of the clips but it we weren't really testing the audio quality of it so I don't have much to report about that.

I thought about this route and bought an Alesis mixer with an iPod dock built into it and XLR & 1/4" jacks. it also had a limiter built in too and worked as a computer interface. A bulky setup compared to the Zoom H2 though but seemed much more versatile.



The show stopper for me was though with my 60Gb video ipod I could hear clicks and noises when the internal hard disc would spin up. It might be an option with a nano though that has no hard drive. Also the battery life when recording is not that great. I ended up returning this a few days later and bought the H2.

[treyvollmer]

Z,

I've read that the H2 has issues with the audio drifting out of sync with video every few minutes even after you sync it up in post?

What is your experience with this?

Trey

[nolonemo]

Z,

I've read that the H2 has issues with the audio drifting out of sync with video every few minutes even after you sync it up in post?

What is your experience with this?

Trey

The H2 does experience drift, but it is linear (i.e., a constant % no matter what the length of the take). What you want to do is to do a test, where you start the HVx0 and the H2, do a handclap, record for 50 min, do a handclap, measure the time between each and figure out the conversion factor you need to apply to strech or compress the H2 audio in an audio editor. I posted an excel spreadsheet to make this easier, search on my handle to find it. Of course, if you are talking about short takes, its not really an issue.

[DaFireMedic]

The H2 does experience drift, but it is linear (i.e., a constant % no matter what the length of the take). What you want to do is to do a test, where you start the HVx0 and the H2, do a handclap, record for 50 min, do a handclap, measure the time between each and figure out the conversion factor you need to apply to strech or compress the H2 audio in an audio editor. I posted an excel spreadsheet to make this easier, search on my handle to find it. Of course, if you are talking about short takes, its not really an issue.

I believe you are right Nolonemo, that the H2 is supposed to be very accurate when referenced against itself in a linear fashion.

Here is a method using freeware to do what Nolonemo said, although it can be applied to almost any audio editor.

http://www.mfbb.net/myvideoproblems/...yvideoproblems



Oh, and here is the thread with Nolonemo's spreadsheet (Thanks man....):

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t...ighlight=excel

[Shadow_7]

I've read that the H2 has issues with the audio drifting out of sync with video every few minutes even after you sync it up in post?

I've heard the same about the H4 on a trombone forum. It runs hot / fast relative to the fps of video. Or something like that. Which I suppose is only a problem if you want to use the audio that was recorded on the unit, instead of what fed from the unit to the camcorder.

I plan on using my Korg MR-1000. Not that it has any sort of world clock to sync to. But I'm hoping the audio speed and video speed are well matched. And I'll be using the headphone out to feed the camcorder to further help sync (if it needs it).

I suppose you could record a visual / audible clap sequence before the shot and after the shot to help with sync issues. Once you know the amount of adjustment needed, the fix should be fairly consistent. It's probably easier to adjust the audio than the video depending on the fps limitations of the codec. I tried it the other way when I adjusted the audio from a dvd I have, and I had to use a 29.54 fps, instead of 29.97. Otherwise the audio sequence was over a second out of phase after ten minutes. Very noticeable when the trumpet player is still playing after they've put their horn down.

[nolonemo]

The amount of sync drift depends on the camera and recorder, with consumer grade equipment, it's highly unlikely that the clocks will be super accurate. That being said, I recently did a 2-camera performance shoot about 45 minutes long, front and end slates using a manual flash. The HV20 and HV30 kept perfect sync. The audio recorded with a Sony PCM-D50 was off by about 1.5 frames after the 45 minutes.

[treyvollmer]

Thanks for your insights.

I'm trying to visualize the logistics of correcting this in post.

I use FCP6, so I imagine I'll be cutting some audio out with a blade tool, and then dragging the drifted audio back over to re-sync.

What I gather from this thread is that it shouldn't be a problem when I'm making a short film because of the short takes.

But....

If I'm doing longer takes, i.e. an entire wedding ceremony, there may be some issues with drifting audio.

Am I heari n g you correctly?

Trey

[zephyrnoid]

That's a great workflow. I take it you're planning to deliver a surround sound audio track on Blu-Ray at some point or do you use the 4 channels to just capture ambient in 360º ?

I also want to put in a vote for the Zoom H2. Of the options discussed in this thread, it is easily the most expensive option (~$185-200 US), but as zephyrnoid pointed out in his testing post in a previous thread, it is also very versatile. One additional use that I have made of my H2 is to clap synchronize the recording and record with the Zoom H2 in 4 channel mode, with the H2's line out connected to the mic in on the HV20.

The resultant HV20 audio is obviously not 4 channel (duhh!), but after capturing the m2t file (actually, I do it as Cineform AVI), I also upload the dual WAV files (one contains FR & FL, the other has RR & RL) via USB from the Zoom H2. Then I combine the m2t file and the two WAV files as four separate tracks in Vegas. Once I get them all synced up, I use the Vegas audio editing features to create a 5.1 output without the original HV20 audio. So far, it's been more of an exercise to demonstrate the concept rather than anything else, but it may have potential for burning BluRay discs in the future.