Zoom H2 as external mic

[tlindaas]

Anyone had any luck using the Zoom H2 recorder as an external mic? (Send audio signal through H2 line out, feed the signal through the HV20 mic input, with attenuator on.)

I'm reading that the H2 sound good, and it is very small and light, fitting in a shirt pocket, plus only one unit to carry, trouble is you have to align sound to picture in post (if you only use the H2 as audio recorder).

But if it works well as an external mic for the HV20, this setup would save you from a lot of tedious manual work, even though the audio quality will suffer somewhat (because of the inherent limitations in the HDV audio spec).

[zephyrnoid]

I don't care for "wide angle sound" as the main audio, unless the shot is a wide sweeping panoramic. It is great for ambient audio. The Zoom H2 Records in WAV 96kHz/48kHz/44.1kHz at 16-bit or 24-bit which makes it an impressive 'deck'. Perfect for hidden direct lav recordings which are a great alternative to wireless lavs. I've been doing that with a Sony MZ-R37 for years. Sync'ng such audio in post requires a clapboard really.
I do wonder how it performs as a MicPre as well. Any thoughts on that?

Anyone had any luck using the Zoom H2 recorder as an external mic? (Send audio signal through H2 line out, feed the signal through the HV20 mic input, with attenuator on.)

I'm reading that the H2 sound good, and it is very small and light, fitting in a shirt pocket, plus only one unit to carry, trouble is you have to align sound to picture in post (if you only use the H2 as audio recorder).

But if it works well as an external mic for the HV20, this setup would save you from a lot of tedious manual work, even though the audio quality will suffer somewhat (because of the inherent limitations in the HDV audio spec).

[treyvollmer]

Z,

I've read that the H2 has issues with the audio drifting out of sync with video every few minutes even after you sync it up in post?

What is your experience with this?

Trey

[nolonemo]

Z,

I've read that the H2 has issues with the audio drifting out of sync with video every few minutes even after you sync it up in post?

What is your experience with this?

Trey

The H2 does experience drift, but it is linear (i.e., a constant % no matter what the length of the take). What you want to do is to do a test, where you start the HVx0 and the H2, do a handclap, record for 50 min, do a handclap, measure the time between each and figure out the conversion factor you need to apply to strech or compress the H2 audio in an audio editor. I posted an excel spreadsheet to make this easier, search on my handle to find it. Of course, if you are talking about short takes, its not really an issue.

[DaFireMedic]

The H2 does experience drift, but it is linear (i.e., a constant % no matter what the length of the take). What you want to do is to do a test, where you start the HVx0 and the H2, do a handclap, record for 50 min, do a handclap, measure the time between each and figure out the conversion factor you need to apply to strech or compress the H2 audio in an audio editor. I posted an excel spreadsheet to make this easier, search on my handle to find it. Of course, if you are talking about short takes, its not really an issue.

I believe you are right Nolonemo, that the H2 is supposed to be very accurate when referenced against itself in a linear fashion.

Here is a method using freeware to do what Nolonemo said, although it can be applied to almost any audio editor.

http://www.mfbb.net/myvideoproblems/...yvideoproblems



Oh, and here is the thread with Nolonemo's spreadsheet (Thanks man....):

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t...ighlight=excel

[Shadow_7]

I've read that the H2 has issues with the audio drifting out of sync with video every few minutes even after you sync it up in post?

I've heard the same about the H4 on a trombone forum. It runs hot / fast relative to the fps of video. Or something like that. Which I suppose is only a problem if you want to use the audio that was recorded on the unit, instead of what fed from the unit to the camcorder.

I plan on using my Korg MR-1000. Not that it has any sort of world clock to sync to. But I'm hoping the audio speed and video speed are well matched. And I'll be using the headphone out to feed the camcorder to further help sync (if it needs it).

I suppose you could record a visual / audible clap sequence before the shot and after the shot to help with sync issues. Once you know the amount of adjustment needed, the fix should be fairly consistent. It's probably easier to adjust the audio than the video depending on the fps limitations of the codec. I tried it the other way when I adjusted the audio from a dvd I have, and I had to use a 29.54 fps, instead of 29.97. Otherwise the audio sequence was over a second out of phase after ten minutes. Very noticeable when the trumpet player is still playing after they've put their horn down.

[nolonemo]

The amount of sync drift depends on the camera and recorder, with consumer grade equipment, it's highly unlikely that the clocks will be super accurate. That being said, I recently did a 2-camera performance shoot about 45 minutes long, front and end slates using a manual flash. The HV20 and HV30 kept perfect sync. The audio recorded with a Sony PCM-D50 was off by about 1.5 frames after the 45 minutes.

[treyvollmer]

Thanks for your insights.

I'm trying to visualize the logistics of correcting this in post.

I use FCP6, so I imagine I'll be cutting some audio out with a blade tool, and then dragging the drifted audio back over to re-sync.

What I gather from this thread is that it shouldn't be a problem when I'm making a short film because of the short takes.

But....

If I'm doing longer takes, i.e. an entire wedding ceremony, there may be some issues with drifting audio.

Am I heari n g you correctly?

Trey

[tlindaas]

I do wonder how it performs as a MicPre as well. Any thoughts on that?

I've heard that the mic pre is good, but only when you are using the internal mics. If you attach external microphones to it, it supposedly sound pretty bad.
http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmed...der_detai.html
(long thread, do a search for "external")

Review here, with some sample recordings:
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/...er.html?page=1

[treyvollmer]

I've heard that the mic pre is good, but only when you are using the internal mics. If you attach external microphones to it, it supposedly sound pretty bad.
http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmed...der_detai.html
(long thread, do a search for "external")

Review here, with some sample recordings:
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/...er.html?page=1

When you say micpre, do you mean mic preamp?

If so what does a mic pre amp do?

Trey

[treyvollmer]

I've heard that the mic pre is good, but only when you are using the internal mics. If you attach external microphones to it, it supposedly sound pretty bad.
http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmed...der_detai.html
(long thread, do a search for "external")

Review here, with some sample recordings:
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/...er.html?page=1

What is a mic pre?

[drapeama]

Just to add to the thread, I've recently done a video for a friend (submission for a TV show) and we ran out of time (mainly due to his lack of preparation and last minute call), so I setup'd my HV40 with my Tascam DR-05 on top of it, as a mic. The result (like with any other mic placed on top of the camcorder) is a bit echo and roomy, but overall, it's always a good backup option (better than the onboard mics).
Here's the video:

[Terfyn]

Got my Zoom H2 today (camera returned from repair tomorrow) First impressions are very good. It does what it says on the box. The LCD screen is a bit small but readable.
Tried my Stereo condenser mic on it. The sound level was lower for the external Mic but the sound quality was good. With the Mic Gain on High, there was a slight "hiss" but it sounded more like ambient noise.
It works well as a Computer Mic through the USB port but, I noticed that the playback came through the H2 and not the monitor speakers. (Cuts the chance of feedback)
The next test will be as a Mic for the HV20 - should work OK as the Line Out is controlled by volume buttons on the H2, it will be a matter of setting the H2 volume to give an adequate signal into the HV20. Will report back!

[Terfyn]

The GOOD news is - YES you can use the H2 as a camera mic. I switched both the mic vol on the HV20 and the H2 Line Out vol to zero, switched on the Attenuator and connected up. The volumes were increased and the sound came through beautifully!! Switched OFF the Attenuator and the combination still worked well.
I do not propose to give any Vol figures for the H2 as this was not a thorough test, it was more of a "does it explode???" sort of test.
The H2 does work as an external mic.

[treyvollmer]

The GOOD news is - YES you can use the H2 as a camera mic. I switched both the mic vol on the HV20 and the H2 Line Out vol to zero, switched on the Attenuator and connected up. The volumes were increased and the sound came through beautifully!! Switched OFF the Attenuator and the combination still worked well.
I do not propose to give any Vol figures for the H2 as this was not a thorough test, it was more of a "does it explode???" sort of test.
The H2 does work as an external mic.

Terfyn,

Do you have any pictures of the H2 hooked up to your HV20?

Trey

[Speculator]

Anyone know how to attack a Zoom H4 onto the hotshoe? Can't seem to find any adapters .

[tlindaas]

That's great news! Now what would be the smartest way to use this combo? I'm thinking about placing the H2 in a fanny pack, or shoulder bag, far away from the HV20s motor noise.

(Don't have the opportunity to experiment myself right now, going for a round the world trip soon, will stop in Hong Kong to buy the H2 and some other stuff.)

[tlindaas]

Some interesting comparisons I can think of:

- HV20 internal mic vs H2 used as external mic

- H2 used as external mic vs Beachtek/Sound Devices with good mic.

- H2 used as external mic, trying out both the H2s internal mic option, and the possibility to plug in an external mic into it.


Any mad scientists out there?

[zephyrnoid]

- HV20 internal mic vs H2 used as external mic
I'm guessing that two things you'll be able to count on are:
1- if mounted close to the camera The H2 will pick up noise from the HV20.If mounted well away from the camera then it will have much better sound than the HV20 internal can deliver
2- The H2, even at 90º has a pick-up pattern that is omnidirectional. If that's what you want then it should be a winner. If a shot-gun's focused pick-up pattern is what you seek, it will not give you that

- H2 used as external mic vs Beachtek/Sound Devices with good mic.
I like a highly directiona pick up pattern from my mics that are being used to record individual voices, versus a chorus or ambient sound. So for me, the Sennheiser ME66 mounted on a shockmount and running into channel 1 of the beachtek then into the HV20 is a better scenario. I have also found that adding a wired or wirelell Lav from the subject into channel2 of the beachtek is amazing (two channels from one voice, one at a distance and one right-up close) . Obviously this can be expensive.

- H2 used as external mic, trying out both the H2s internal mic option, and the possibility to plug in an external mic into it.
My understanding is that there is no Mic-pre in the H2, so gain from dynamic external mic input is non-existent, however powered mics should do fine - especially if you're using the H2 as a recorder, seperate from the HV20 track.

As an aside, you are all forgetting that an excellent (non recording) powered external stereo mic exists and regularly sells for under $100. The Sony ECM-MS908 especially in a mount away from the body of the HV20 is an excellent value for the money. Prior to using it on the HV20 as the back-up to the larger shotgun rig, I used it for years as an interview mic going into my sony MD player/recorder. Fantastic sound on a budget.
So basically, the H2 is a wide field and variable field pick up to a high resoltion recording format. Ideal for performance/concerts, whole room conferences and ambient recordings, just like my Sony ECM-MS908. But less than ideal for isolating one voice from the background audio.


Any mad scientists out there? [/QUOTE]

[Terfyn]

The H2 comes with a tapered handle that will fit directly into a Mic holder. So it will sit, at an odd angle, on the HV20 flash shoe. I will keep mine at arms length from the camera.
I am going to try my monopod as a mic boom, the screw thread on the bottom of the H2 fits a camera tripod mount. (What a good idea) Enjoy Hong Kong.

[Terfyn]

If I had a MD recorder then that would be the route I take.(I had a Sharp at one time, my son whipped it and it has disappeared.)
I already have a stereo capacitor mic, a mono shotgun and a wireless lav. So the H2 is an addition to the armoury.
The H2 is a recorder, WAV or MP3 player, surround sound 5.1 recorder (after a fiddle with the tracks) computer USB mic and SD reader.
I'm not claiming that it is better than MD or a Fostex but it is a very versatile pocket recorder that can support all the functions shown above. I can record directly and put the WAV file on to my computer for use directly into the NLE.
Tlindaas asked the question for the same reason that I questioned the H2. Can I use it as a mic for my HV20 and the answer is yes.
The versatility comes from the SD card which I can put directly into the computer. (and the fact that it is digital and does not need converting in the computer)

[zephyrnoid]

I didn't know about the SD or USB features! That IS excellent. Just wish the MIC wasn't surround sound.

[tlindaas]

About the surround/directional thing. The manual says:

"When making a recording with the built-in
mics of the H2, sound is not simply picked up
from all directions. Rather, you can control the
direction and the angle from which sound is
picked up. [...]

● FRONT 90o (stereo mode)
Sources located within a 90-degree angle on
the front side of the unit are recorded in stereo.

● SURROUND 2CH (stereo mode)
Sound from the front side and the rear side of
the unit is recorded in 2 channels.

● SURROUND 4CH (4-channel mode)
Stereo sound from the front side and stereo
sound from the rear side of the unit is recorded
in 4 channels.

● REAR 120o (stereo mode)
Sources located within a 120-degree angle on
the rear side of the unit are recorded in stereo."
(p. 21-22)


zephyrnoid, I guess your point is that 90 degrees coverage can be to wide for some recording situations, like interviews?

Myself, I think I can live with that limitation. I will mainly use the camera for landscapes and parties/groups and as a diary travel cam. If I need to filter out a particular voice in the frame, I guess my best option is to try to put the H2 as close to the relevant person as possible. Since - in theory - there is no need for cables, the person could easily hold the unit, and I can sync the audio in post. (But I don't see myself doing a lot of this, because of the hassle.)

But thanks for pointing out the coverage limitation. The whole point of this forum is to get more informed

[Terfyn]

I also plugged in my shotgun. That works OK too. Rather misses the point as I would normally plug the SG into the HV20.
I tried the Line In with my keyboards and that works well. Great for practicing and easy to use.

The Mic pattern is cardioid around the axis of the relevant mic, soit will pick up sound from the side.

[Terfyn]

Another experiment. Connected a Lavalier mic to the Mic In. Result NOTHING. Switched "Plug-in" to ON Result Amazing sounds - must be a Dynamic Mic.