Demo of three point lighting
Here is a demo of three point lighting I did for a class. It includes examples of "broad" and "short" key light position.
you can down load it here: http://hv20.info/yopu/lighting_tests.mp4
there is a smaller version here: http://hv20.info/yopu/lighting_tests_sm.mov
Thanks. Great results.
I'm sure that it is simple enough to do.
What lighting equipment and accessories did you use here?
Can you precisely describe where you placed each light relative to the juggler?
Are you experienced at lighting? I would guess that this is a standard three-light setup. Do you have a lighting manual you'd recommend?
Thanks.
JM
Great illustration of lighting. What I would like to see - and you so nearly did it - is what the fill light looks like on its own. you showed the solo key and solo rim, but I don't recall seeing a solo fill.
But that aside, I found the video so useful I've downloaded it to keep as a permanent reminder.
Thank you very much!
I agree with you Worley. We should have a stickied thread with a list of useful videos like this one.
*quote removed*
It isn't hard. You just need to have the knowlege and some basic tools. The rest is developing your eye.
I can't recommend a lighting manual because I only have one and I haven't even finished reading it yet. I'm mostly just reading it to learn the names of real-life lights and basics of using the other tools. I light computer graphics for a living and my "eye" is already pretty well developed. Now I'm simply learning technical stuff to tranfer those skills to real-world lighting.
What I used to light this scene where two compact fluorescent lights and one HMI Fresnel light that I built from an old tungsten Fresnel. I used a couple of "solid" flags made from black foam core to keep the key from spilling on the background wall. There is a "snoot" on the fill to keep it from spilling too much on the walls.
Key = 105 watt 5000k flo (It's a very large CFL!)
Fill = 28 watt 5000k flo
rim = 150 wat 5600k HMI (with a bit of diffusion to knock down it's intensity and soften it a bit)
The key is nearly at ceiling height, about 45 deg up and 45 deg to the jugglers left. The fill is at shoulder height about 45 deg to the jugglers right. The rim is 45 deg up and nearly directly behind the juggler. (but not exactly behind, because I couldn't rig it that way. Even as it is, at screen right you can see the edge of the arm sticking off the c-stand which is holding the light.)
One of the things you learn very quickly when you start lighting in real life is that it's mostly about stopping light from going where you DON'T want it. For every light it's not unreasonable to have 2-3 flags blocking light from going places you don't want it. I only have 4 c-stands, so I'm usually short on stands and flags which is a bigger technical impediment to me than my lack of lights. Fortunately, most shots only require simple setups and video is pretty sensitive in the blacks so often a single extra light plus the natural ambient is enough to get a decent result. For my lighting methodology at least, that usually means just adding a key light. (I'll often use the natural ambient or the natural bounce form the key as fill) I typically don't use a rim light unless it's motivated by something in the background. I used a rim for this demo because it was requirement of the assignment. The same goes for the fill. I had to wait until it was night because that's the only way I could effectively "black out" my living room to shoot this. Otherwise the fill would probably not have been required to get a nice result.
A word on my chosen lighting fixtures:
One of the reasons I use daylight balanced lights (HMI and flos) is that in my mind they are a little more flexible in mixing them with other sources. It's easier to mix them with natural light coming from windows and you don't need any gels to do so. (color correcting gel steals about half a stop of light) When fighting daylight, you need all the power you can get, so having the lights be their most potent in the situation where you need the most light makes sense to me. To mix them with tungsten sources you need to gel them, which as I've mentioned steals light. But when mixing with practical tungsten sources, especially when we are shooting video, the practicals are usually providing a pretty decent share of the lighting so the loss of light from the "movie lights" isn't as big an issue. (The tungsten "practicals" are pulling some of their own weight) It doesn't take to much to compete with them either, since they are typically pretty low power compared to the movie lights to begin with.
An additional "plus" beyond the fact that daylight color is available quite inexpensively is that flos are also quite efficient (at least 3-4.5 times as efficient as tungsten) and run very cool. They also don't shoot IR at the talent, which keeps them much more comfortable. So, WATT for WATT you get at least 3x the amount of light. When working with regular household circuits, which can usually only deliver about 15 amps, efficiency is important. 15 amps is only about 1600 watts, which in terms of movie lights is next to nothing. To put it in context for you, a 1000 WATT movie light is called "baby". Another pluses but also minus of flo lights is that they are a soft light source. Soft sources tend to be more flattering to people but they are also much harder to control as they "spill" a lot more. It's difficult to get good "cuts" using flags etc. So you end up throwing light all over the place. In addition, depending on the context of the scene, soft light may not be the correct quality of light required. (Imagine sunlight shooting though a window. Sunlight is hard in quality.)
So, to get hard light that is also "daylight" in color to match the flos (also cool in that it doesn't shoot IR at the talent) I "built" an HMI light. Basically it's a Mercury high-intensity-discharge light, similar to the cool blue headlights you may have seen on some modern luxury cars. (only higher in color quality) I built my HMI light from a broken old Mole-Richardson "Baby" movie light my brother-in-laws brother gave me. I rebuilt the Baby and install the HMI "guts" from a kit I purchased (keeping the reflector and lens from the Baby) The new HMI "guts" consume only 150 WATTS but produce as much light as a 600 WATT tungsten would.
On my technique:
My regular technique is probably pretty un-orthodox. (I haven't worked with enough pros to know for sure) I DO know Pros usually start with a dark room and control every aspect of lighting whereas I usually start with the ambient light and "plus" it with my lighting. Even when there is a window, pros often blast extra light though it to balance the light coming thought he window with the lighting illuminating the outside. Unless you have a crane with a huge light, it isn't possible though. (No common household light or low end movie light has the power)
This demo is in a dark room, but only because it was required for my assignment. The demo is very simple and doesn't really show anything new. I did it as a class assignment for my cinematography class. I'm capable of much more I just haven't had the time to execute it.
I'll post some pictures of my stuff soon. I have a lot of friends at work who've been asking to see it. I just haven't had a chance to shoot any decent pictures.
Last edited by Lunchbox; 2007 December 20th at 14:00.
Great information. I have made this a sticky thread.
I think most of us here know very little about lighting. We know a *bit* but not enough, so your expertise is invaluable.
I've read about various lighting techniques, and seen plenty of pictures, but your video demo was more useful than any of those. The problem I have is that my eyes aren't trained to think about light. I'll have to train them to process light and view the world as a camera does... how many months will that take! Then I'll be able to light my scenes for effectively.
Thanks again.
Last edited by Worley; 2007 October 5th at 02:50.
flo stands for fluorescent lighting?
The old fluorescents flicker at 50 (60 in the states?) Hz and that can be a problem. Did you do anything about that? What happens if you crank up the shutter speed to say 1/500?
If you use electronic ballasts flicker is a non issue. I've tested it with my lights up to the fastest shutter speeds on the HV20 and there is no flicker.
Most new fluorescent fixtures are using electronic balasts now and pretty much all compact flos use electronic ballasts also.
If your talking about Kino Flos here..then there 'flicker free'
I've been shooting Hi-Def with Kinos for a couple of years now and no problem.
They're also dimmable.
actually they flicker at 100/120 hz since they produce an equal light pulse on negative voltage as positive. movie flos, like kinos, as well as modern household fixtures, are driven by high frequency ballasts so they don't have this problem.Originally Posted by w.pasman
/matt
I'm talking about ANY modern flo light with electronic ballast. These days that means just about every flo light on the market. Very few use the old magnetic balasts anymore since they are less efficient and actually more expensive to manufacture.
If you you some of the newer nicer "full spectum" tubes (High CRI like Kinos) the color is perfect also.
Of course, hardware store flos are not dimmable like proper Kino Flo lights. But they also happen to cost only 1/60th as much.
Have you also used reflectors for the 'fill'?
hi lordtangent.. thanks so much for the info. just reading about your approach is inspirational.
currently viewing on a dial up connection via gfriend's 500mhz pc.. might not be able to view the mov right now, however, i feel incredibly illuminated and inspired by your words.
lighting computer graphics? what a cool thing to do for a living. very occasionaly, i 'light' some 3d scenes in animated content projects, and have sometimes wondered 'could this be applied to real world lighting?' ..
what an inspiration; thanks again.
yeah, it is a pretty cool job. I used to do "everything" in 3D animaiton (CG generalist) until I specialized. I kind of liked doing everything, but large studios are departmentalized and you have to specialize to work at the bigger studios.
The "technical" aspect of CG lighting is hardly relevant to "real" lighting at all, since so many cheats are possible. But it does help develop your eye (you can't make excuses for NOT getting what you want! I mean, anything is possilbe.) And of course working with such technical tools helps train the mind for problem solving.
Really, for me lighting in real life is almost like a relaxing excercise in simplicity. Stuff happens in realtime! Getting that (relative to CG lighting) instant feedback is really refreshing. And working with actors is usually a lot of fun.
http://www.lowel.com/edu/
Has some really good stuff on lighting basics.
The current issue of VideoMaker Magazine has a pretty good article on the basics and finer points of three point lighting.
Denny
Yes. But sometimes it's not enough. In that case I use another light. I pretty much always bounce the fill off of something just to soften it up though. (Usually just a wall if the walls are white. It's supposed to be "ambient" light. So if it looks too sourcy it would look fake. Bouncing it takes the curse off of it.
I also tend to avoid using a rim light unless I'm going for a stylized look. I mean, do you have "magic rim lights" in YOUR house?
I mean, do you have "magic rim lights" in YOUR house?
Yup!
Most of the servants are also trained to follow me around with a key light.
I have salmon leaping from the river at the bottom of the garden and deer running through my forest. Saltire and family ensign flying from the battlements and Golden Eagles swooping overhead.
Bling! or what?
veg.
I know you are making fun but I don't want to confuse people who might not get it.
My rational when going for a naturalistic lighting style is to try to avoid things that LOOK fake. Rim lights often look unnatural unless they are very subtle.
For those who haven't noticed yet, most "practical" lighting is actually very ugly when you try to photograph it. People always wonder why their home videos look so bad while Hollywood movies look so good. Well, it's because Hollywood movies are carefully lit. It doesn't really take much. You can literally light an entire scene with just one light in some cases. You just need to know where to put that light and take the time to flag of a few areas...
But if you try to rely only on the lights built into your house you will most likely be disappointed by the results. The lights built into most interior locations just don't cut it. To make a movie look good you almost always have to do some amount of "movie lighting". But on the flip side, if you push it too far you tip your hand and the lighting starts to look impossible for the environment. If looks fake, which can looks almost as bad as the "natural" light looked.
Now to address veg's gest regarding the key light as a magical source: The key usually has some rational motivating source. If you can even remotely justify a key with some source in the scene it will easily fool the eye. But IMHO, the same isn't quite true for rim lights. The traditional "hair-light" type rim comes from an impossible place. If you want a rim light to look naturalistic you need to be more creative than that.
I have a middle-ground solution I use from time to time. Not the "Magic Rim" or no rim, but rather a sort of "motivated rim". When I do that style I use a rim-light in a less obvious way than the typical "hair light". Usually my rim light in the more restrained style is off to the side or if it's the traditional hair-light it is very subdued. Either way I try to tie the rim light to some other light in the scene. For example a lamp in the back ground, or in the case of an exterior shot, a bright object or piece of sky that could plausibly create a rim. (though actually doesn't in real life)
Another trick I use is to combine the key and the rim. In that case the brightest light in the scene is actually the rim light. Then I bounce some light back at the subject to give them some "key" and fill. I usually try very hard to maintain some shape in the subject and keep them from looking flat. So even with the bounce cards there is a "key" side, even if it is subtle.
CFL?
[QUOTE=lordtangent;22455]*quote removed*
Key = 105 watt 5000k flo (It's a very large CFL!)
Fill = 28 watt 5000k flo
rim = 150 wat 5600k HMI (with a bit of diffusion to knock down it's intensity and soften it a bit)
[QUOTE]
Is your CFL something you picked up at the hardware store? Is it quiet enough for sound? Did you have to make some hardware in order to connect it to a light stand? Got pictures?
I got the small CFL at the hardware store. It is very quite. The larger CFL was ordered online. It was marketed at a photo and video light. It is NOT quite enough for shooting video in most cases.
I think it's a good case study for not taking things at face value. By all considerations the hardware store light should be the inferior light but in this case the hardware store light is actually better.
Both lights have a similar CRI though. So both lived up to their claims in that department at least.
You can get CFL's with MUCH higher CRI online from photo companies. Definitely worth the extra cash.
When I click either link it says the domain has expired and is pending renewel of deletion.
Nothing we can do about that one. You may want to reconsider kicking topics such as this one, as the topic is over three years old. Anyway, you can find many tutorials on three point lighting on the Internet.
oh, wow, didn't even look at the date, Ijust figured it would be recent given the sticky. I shall continue my net searching for more lighting tuts.
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