The big Mac vs. PC debate thread...
It's beginning to look like everyone around here (and DVXUsers) are all PC people. It's a real shame to see so many Micro$oft people out there. When did it happen??? Guess they'll never know.
Without Rising to the Platform Flame War Bait ...
... could it be because they objected to buying a $3000 Final Cut Pro dongle (aka a Mac?)
When did it happen that there are so many people using PCs instead of Macs?? Uh, it's always been that way. Apple has an extremely small marketshare.
Originally Posted by marshallarts
Originally Posted by David
Iīm using an iMac 20", but not "Mac only". Itīs now essentially a Win XP machine, OSX being used only for iMovie (HV20 25p....) and iTunes (for iPod). IMHO on of the best "Windows machines" on the market, fast, great looking and very, very QUIET.
You will find though that in the prfesional "creative" areas such as photography and digital video, Mac have a much larger if not dominate market share.
Originally Posted by David
Originally Posted by Taj Jackson
I don't know why Apple fanbois feel so required to talk about how big their dicks are. If you like your computer, fine. But don't try to convince me to overpay for a shiny piece of equipment just because you don't know how to build your own computer or install those evil "drivers" that those commercials warn you about.
Last edited by David; 2007 May 15th at 14:36.
The point is that nobody should have to ask when there became so many Microsoft users when Apple has under 5% of the worldwide market share (and only had around 2% just a couple years ago.)
Originally Posted by neocastillo
If you want to make a point, then quote some figures about Apple's dominate market share percentage is in professional creative areas. I make my living in a "professional creative area" and most of my colleagues use macs, but only because they can't be bothered to investigate other options and they were convinced at some point that macs are completely problem free. And they like the way they look. But they also don't know what to do with a 3-button scroll mouse when it's put into their hands. They couldn't tell you the difference between PATA, SATA and SCSI. They think that no PC can work right out of the box. They have no idea what the words ATI or NVIDIA might even be referring to. and on and on and on...
Last edited by David; 2007 May 15th at 14:42.
Well, I guess it has a lot to do with people having to defend themselves from outbursts being thrown at them all the time for making idle comments.
Originally Posted by David
I've been setting up and repairing PCs for over 20 years now and I made the switch at home (not completely, but vast majority) to mac because I was sick and tired of trying to resolve driver conflicts and troubleshoot contentious hardware problems.
Macs certainly aren't trouble-free (just try to run a GPS map loading program on a mac without Windows) but what they do, they do well. Out of the box, you have security (SSH, ipchains firewall, SSL) and a powerfully integrated suite of applications (iLife suite) on top of a quite functional OS.
Sure, you can get applications that integrate on the PC, but you have to find them, install them and then figure out how to use them.
Sure, a PC is a great choice if that's all you can afford, but if you've even started editing video in iMovie or Final Cut, you will begin to understand how deep the integration goes automatically just from being on OS X.
Overall, if you're happy working on a PC then all the power to you. Live and love what you do in the environment you're working in. Accept that others will do the same for their environments as well.
There will be people that do go from Mac to PC and others that go from PC to Mac, but at least try it to make your own conclusions. Go into a store with demo systems and ask to play around. Try making a quick movie in iMovie. Until you've seriously tried to play around with it, reserve your derogatory comments.
I'm a theatrical sound designer by trade. On the last show I did, I required live, non-proprietary input mixing on a computer saved into a cue list. There is only one piece of software on the planet that does this. It's called Cricket and it's for Mac.
Having not owned a Mac in about 10 years I was kind of bummed out about that, wanting to stick with something I knew. But, obviously, on the surface Macs are easy to use and I got the hang of it right away.
Unfortunately, that Mac was the worst computer I have ever used in all my life, bar none. And I have used a lot of computers. The major problem I ran into turned out to be quite a common one once I started poking on the net. What happened was the 10.04.9 upgrade completely corrupted the OS and I had to reinstall from scratch. This happens more than you'd think, and worst of all, it's been happening to people on every single OS upgrade since 10.4 was released.
Then, OSX would not install. It gave by far the most cryptic error messages I've ever seen (which is ironic considering their latest TV ad) and no indication as to what was going on. Finally dug myself into a back corner of Apple's website and found that you usually can't install OSX when third-party RAM modules are installed. Erm.... what?? Why?!!
Anyway, finally got things running, and it did fairly well. Didn't install 10.4.9 because it turns out it also causes incompatibilities with my (very common) sound card. Alright, I can live with that. 10.4.8, which I had to install very carefully from the "combo" updater (not the auto-updater) and not touch the mouse while it was doing it - those two reasons are why the updates corrupt the OS apparently (stupid if you ask me - just fix it Apple). But it still occasionally crashed the kernel due to the (original, OEM) graphics driver when doing things like scrolling very fast while simultaneously editing cues. Funny considering I have not had XP crash in any way on any of my machines in about 5 years - literally.
My conclusion on Macs is this: Stock, out of the box, the casual user will have no problems doing the very basic things that a Mac does with ease. It does those things well. As soon as you want to go beyond that, ie by changing settings (most of which are hidden with cryptic UNIX console commands, unlike Windows which actually has a way better GUI for every setting imaginable), or installing new hardware (incompatibilities ABOUND), or using software that isn't used by every single other Mac user out there, they become a gigantic pain in the ass.
IMO Macs are for people who don't want / need to get into the technicalities of their computer. But a computer is by nature a technical device and must be treated as such to actually function. So that is just another way of saying that Macs are for people who only want to look at their computers (and maybe their OS) and not really use them.
Also, this may be a kind of strange comment, because most people find them "easy," but I find them boring to use. What you see when you first start it up is basically all there is to the OS. You can't do much else. And when something goes wrong, there probably isn't anything you can do to fix it.
I went Mac and I came straight back.
At the moment XP is the best OS I have used, out of a good 20 or so in my lifetime.
That said, at least OSX is better than Vista, which is possibly the worst mass-market OS ever made. I have a feeling that unless MS realizes what a massive blunder this is, my next OS (which won't happen for a while) is going to have to be Linux.
Last edited by dasbin; 2007 May 16th at 15:05.
You can run into strange problems using OSX, thatīs right.
WMV-HD (WMV9) is a totally standard format for HD-output that you can store on DVDs , give to your friends, customers etc. You need an additional 179 $ piece of software on the Mac to do this, if you need it instead of a QT HD-File. This is strange. And why canīt the Mac write to NTFS-formatted harddisks? At least you can buy reasonably priced software for your PC to write-access Mac-formatted drives, but there is no easy solution the other way round that i know of. There are just so many mindboggling and totally unnecessary limitations that you run into pretty fast after starting using a Mac. And this hasnīt changed a bit in the last 20 years or so, iīve used only Macs before appr. 2003. Apple will kill itīs own OS with Bootcamp (now thatīs a perfect working peace oft software!) i think. My iMac is such a great working "PC" now, i still canīt believe it.
Hmm. PC stands for Personal Computer. Aren't Macs personal computers?
I started out with PCs, moved to Macs. First Mac died after 10 months. Repaired, but died in month 13.
Mac #2, died after 13 months.
Mac #3, died after 13 months.
Cost of repair = marginally less than cost of new Mac, but almost twice the cost of a similarly spec'd PC.
So I came back to PCs.
What can a Mac do that my PC can't? Other than burn a hole in my pocket?
These lumps of plastic, metal and silicon sitting on our desks, really aren't worth getting excited about.
Some bras are big, others are frilly, but whichever tickles your fancy, a bra supports the bosom.
I'm very jaded towards the Win/PC world myself for a lot of reasons.
I've worked with Mac's before and they're ok, but never really made me say "wow".
The Apple stores tend to remind me of a womans boutique. Tons of fashion and color options to coordinate with what your wearing, but in the end your just paying more for looks than what the products worth. My PC sits in the cabinet next to my desk and I think I might see it every other week if I need to put a CD or DVD into it. I really could care less how "cute" the little bugger is. My W2K3 (DC/web/Exchange 2K3) server is about the ugliest box in the world right now (very old case that's been kicked, dented, dropped and currently covered in dust) but you know, it's been up and running perfectly for ~6 years, 24/7 (used to be a W2K box before that and my desktop box before that.).
You can very easily put together a very nice and stable Win/PC if you know what your doing and do your research. If you don't want to do the work, many companies are offering great out-of-the-box desktops that just plain work. Heck, my main working PC at home is a HP Media Center I bought last year. After Vista released, I put Ultimate on it and you know, 99.99% of things just worked (only exception really was the finger print reader software, which worked, but would occasionally crash IE). As soon as more 64 bit drivers are available, I'll go Utlimate 64 on it. Yeah, I'm not quite that adventurous yet!
Macs are Macs and PC's are PC's, but which guy in the Apple commercial has enough money left over after buying his computer to also get a nice suit, haircut and afford to see his optomitrist? (I personally dress more like the apple guy, but that's because all the rest of my money goes to my Wife, my Harley, HV-20 and other toys).
Small Disclaimer: My opinion is my own and does not necessarily represent the opinions of my employer.
"The Apple stores tend to remind me of a womans boutique"
I've never heard it put that way, but your description fits pretty well i guess Steve. I'm going to generalize here when I say, that the Mac buyers or definitely a different breed of folks than the PC folks. That's not to say there is plenty of mix on both sides but by nature, we usually march to quite a different drum beat. that is probably why there are a lot of arguments going on from each side. really if you put the games asside, our computers are a tool to get a job done. the job flows tend to be different and each different people are more successful with one style of tool versus another.
there's a couple cents for you to digest.
i'm a pc person by the way. i am almost terrified when i get a call on a Mac, simply because i've never trained myself on that side of the fence. luckily when push comes to shove, i don't have responsibility to support the Mac's other than best effort. they usually wind up getting the Mac store involved. i guess after reading Steve's post, i should tell them i think you're going to have to call the "boutique" to get this puppy fixed.
all this talk aside, i have always wished i could have a good high end Mac to play with. they've always seemed a natural for my hobbies of music and now video taping music. i guess the price has kept me from doing it. anybody remember what that other Job's machines name was?
Last edited by bluegrass; 2007 May 16th at 18:12.
Are you talking about the "Lisa"?
New. he came out with a very intense high end graphic box that lasted about a year I think. I would say it was shortly after he left Apple back around 85' maybe. you would recognize the name if you heard it.
Originally Posted by SSzudzik
i think lisa was a version of the early mac. maybe the first mac with color.
the one i'm thinkin' about came after Jobs left Apple. he had his own company again for awhile. i don't think there was a problem with his new box except that he couldn't get software developers to develop enough software and i believe is was pretty expenseive.
do you remember the Grid computer. another one that i believe was a very costly pc laptop that had an orange plasma display. black titianium as i recall. very rugged. it would have been early 90's.
Here's the grid and yup, saw a few of those back in the day. Heavy little suckers! We had a few at my first CS job in our test lab.
Jobs did NeXT, never had an opportunity to do anything with that though.
Yep. You nailed them. Did you see that puppy had 384kb of ram. Wow!
Originally Posted by SSzudzik
My first computer was a TRS-80 Model 1 that I immediately upgraded to 16kb of ram. That puppy was a screamer. Taped based. I didn't get a floppy until about a year later. Of course a hard disk wasn't even available back in those days of the late 70's, but I'm digressing here a little.
I have my tent, cot, foldup slat table, 5 mic stands, chairs, coleman lamp, marine battery, UPS, lots of cables, extension cords, stash, pod coffee maker all packed. All I have to do is throw the camera bags, dual chanel wireless rig for laviere and XLR mics, tool kit, mics, 32" LCD, and my dog "River" in the car, stop by the store for some ice & beer and I'm headin' for the Ozarks at 5:00 this afternoon for some great flat pickin' and singing for 3 days.
The music is going to be in a wine cellar with a limited audience of about a hundred. These pickers are comin' from North Carolina, & Tennessee. There will also be plenty of evenin' pickin' outdoors around a fire. There is also a log cabin with a big front porch that I hear is a place where some pickin' goes down occasionally. As your sippin' your beer, martini, manhattan, or glass of wine, if anyone has some sage advice for a real amateur videoographer, don't hesitate to give it. Here's a link to Peaceful Bend if you want to see the place I'm headin' for and will be taping at for the next 3 days. http://www.peacefulbend.com/events/events.shtml
As I tape this weekend, I'd like to tell a story in the form of a short documentary about how this young couple bought this old winery that had it's orchards let go for awhile and them bringing it back along with all of the other things such as occasional music events that are now going on there. A couple years ago they found out by accident the wine cellar had great acoustics for acoustic music. I'd like to shoot a lot of footage and maybe piece together into a amateur documentary but I don't know anything other than I shoud have been doing some storyboarding in prepartion for it. By the way, to sorta set the scene, we're talkin' back in the sticks. I don't know if any of you remember the "Darlin' Boys" from the Andy Griffith show but they were the "Dillards" that grew up about 15 miles from this winery.
Wish me luck
Last edited by bluegrass; 2007 May 17th at 09:42.
Hey Mal. So the rucus got so for out of hand, you decided it would be better to continue the fisticuf in the tavern eh.
I've still got my Kaypro IV and all the software, anybody remember CP/M? I still have the books, too bad they didn't see the MS onslaught coming.....
Good luck with your project bluegrass. Sounds like it's going to be a very fun time out there! Be sure to post a few small clips for us all to enjoy when you get it put together!
I started my computer career playing with the large plastic tape reels my dad brought home from work in the early-mid 70's. Made really good frisbees and came in all sorts of colors! Kept me entertained I suppose.
I started learning programming in the very early 80's on my dad's Heathkit 2000. He had the big 8" floppy attached, so as long as I remembered to save to disk before I ran out of memory it worked great. Lost quite a few things by forgetting to frequently save my stuff. Of course that was really me just copying code to make basic games out of a book, but it stuck. Did some similar stuff on the Apple II that we had at our elementary school. Kept doing it over the years as my dad got his first "real" PC with MS-DOS on it. I was hooked. He always had PC's (though most other people I knew had macs ) so that's just what I learned.
Worked with a few mac's at my previous job since we supported both platforms. They were ok, don't really have anything against them, just like instigating trouble now and then ; ). My current job, we don't have too many mac's around, but that's not very surprising considering where I work. At home I run Windows servers & clients, have an XBox and not a Wii or PS3, have a Zune and not an iPod. Heck, even my cable box is running MS software. And you know, it all just works.
My sister is the odd-ball of the family. She very much fits the boutique model presented earlier. The mac is fine for what it is and gets the job done just as well as a PC. They both have their issues and advantages, no matter how much people want to argue either way. For me, the PC brings the right productivity at the right price and I love the flexibility of the options that are available for it. Tons of software, tons of hardware... For me, it's all about the options.