Fully Decoded BP-827 Batteries / BP-827 with LED Indicator

[CycleWriter]

I's a dick move, because they then make a 9,000% profit margin on their battery and make it hard for somebody to afford, even though they really need an extra battery because they only last 30 minutes, even though most tape camera batteries last at least an hour.

I see it differently. By Canon creating a fear in consumers about aftermarket batteries, this forces the companies making them to build them better so that consumers can buy them with confidence. Otherwise, there would be no buyers for them. You have the choice of spending the money for the Canon and getting peace of mind for your money, or spending less for an aftermarket battery with a slight risk if you don't do your homework to find the reputable ones. Either way, the consumer is in control.

[stockstradr]

I cannot imagine that forum members would DEFEND Canon's ridiculously high battery and battery charger pricing which Canon forces upon consumers by embedding microchips in their batteries so the S10 / S100 complains when we attach a REASONABLY priced non-Canon battery.

This week I decided to mutiny from buyng Canon batteries and instead buy from Lunchbox's web site. I don't give a rat's butt if my S100 won't display % battery power remaining for my non-OEM battery. I'll be happier knowing how much money I saved over not buying Canon.

And you know what REALLY irks me? Canon screws us double with their over-the-top battery pricing, combined with the months-long order lead-times being reported because the hi-cap S10/S100 Canon batteries are all on back-order! They go too far.

[Lunchbox]

Thanks for buying from me =)

That seems to be the trend. Sony's LED light can only work on geniune Sony batteries. If you load a generic battery to it's light, it won't lit up. That totally sucks too! I hope Canon won't go to that extreme.

Similar thing happen to the Inkjet printer cartridge market. Epson/HP/Canon inserted a chip to each ink cartridge. So third party ink won't work. Then some companies reverse engineer the chip and put to their ink cartridge, all got sued by these companies. Anyhow, ink cartridge is another rip off. I'm using those continous ink system (CISS) now I don't have to buy any more $15 a cartridge.

[vulture99]

Where's the fault in their A) wanting to protect their warrantied product from premature failure, and B) wanting to protect their market for accessory battery sales? You can still use an aftermarket battery, can't you? I love how people fault Canon for their decisions as if they are merely out to screw consumers. Sony has been using non-standard, proprietary designs in their products for decades. That's truly counter-consumer, IMO. Get a grip.

Oh don't worry, I have a grip alright - a tight grip on my wallet.

Yes, I blame Canon for (1) charging the ridiculous amount of $120 retail for a BP-819 battery, and (2) the fact that if you want the battery level meter on the camera to work, you can ONLY use a Canon battery.

You have the choice of spending the money for the Canon and getting peace of mind for your money, or spending less for an aftermarket battery with a slight risk if you don't do your homework to find the reputable ones.

That's true, I have a choice. However, my choice involves a lot less money AND peace of mind. I bought two BP-819 generic batteries for $36 shipped and they work great, other than the minor annoyance that I already described.

[1]

You can't have it both ways.

Blaming Canon (or any other company) that makes sure quality is met and adhered to is common practice in ALL but the shoddiest products/companies.

We'd be closing down threads left and right, if crappy batteries were causing the cams to go wonky.

Quality control is something we should HOPE these companies take seriously.

There's plenty of reasons for legitimate complaint - OEMs protecting their equipment by specifying quality accessories isn't one of them.

[CycleWriter]

Sony and Panasonic have had these proprietary fuel gauge batteries for years. Canon only recently started using this technology. If you feel so strongly about it, why buy anything from Canon? This is an expensive hobby. I have been making a living as a photog for almost 20 years, all of which I've been using Canon cameras and lenses. You think that battery is expensive, try pricing Canon EOS L still lenses or a flash unit. There's a reason more pro sports photogs shoot with Canon and it's the same reason you chose your video camera. Complaining about your choice after the fact is just silly. You had the choice to buy something else.

[CycleWriter]

Oh don't worry, I have a grip alright - a tight grip on my wallet.

Yes, I blame Canon for (1) charging the ridiculous amount of $120 retail for a BP-819 battery, and (2) the fact that if you want the battery level meter on the camera to work, you can ONLY use a Canon battery.

If it's overpriced, it won't sell and Canon will either be forced to lower the price or discontinue it.

That's true, I have a choice. However, my choice involves a lot less money AND peace of mind. I bought two BP-819 generic batteries for $36 shipped and they work great, other than the minor annoyance that I already described.

So, apparently Canon has done nothing to keep you from buying a cheaper battery. Your only complaint is that they do not license the fuel gauge technology to others that compete with them for sales so they can undercut Canon's prices. Sounds like good business on Canon's part not to do that.

What you fail to see is what goes into the extra cost of Canon's battery. Maybe it is only a little more expensive to manufacture, but what happens when that cheap battery fails and damages your camera? Do you think that company will do more than warranty just their battery (if that much)? If the Canon battery fails and damages your Canon camera I bet you will have a much better chance at getting them to warranty both items. Fat chance on getting warranty service of any kind for damage caused by a 3rd party battery. That's part of the additional cost in an OEM battery and where the peace of mind comes from. You also forget that Canon has to engineer their products and that costs money. Other companies only have to copy them, which costs significantly less. But you go right ahead and keep thinking Canon is evil.

[vulture99]

What you fail to see

Fallacy #1. I don't fail to see. But it seems you may know more about the internal workings of Canon's engineering and manufacturing economics than the rest of us. Care to share some of that information?

You also forget that Canon has to engineer their products and that costs money.

Fallacy #2. I know this, and it is not something I have forgotten. Again, perhaps you could enlighten us about how much it costs Canon to engineer and manufacture their batteries? Maybe you could tell us if they do it all in-house or outsource the work?

But you go right ahead and keep thinking Canon is evil

Fallacy #3. I don't think Canon is evil. But I'll tell you what I do think. I think their batteries are overpriced.

Hey, you're pretty good at ascribing things to people who you know nothing about! You might have a future policing an Internet fiefdom! Oh wait....

[CycleWriter]

I ascribed to you the same as anyone else would after reading your diatribes. Other than having been a member of Canon Professional Services for a number of years, I am not privy to any insider secrets about their operations. There's a lot I know about manufacturing that I could share, but you don't really seem that interested in hearing it. You seem more intent on railing against Canon for their battery prices while completely ignoring the tremendous amount of technology that camera you're holding contains and the relatively cheap price you were able to get it for, all things considered.

[vulture99]

I ascribed to you the same as anyone else would after reading your diatribes. Other than having been a member of Canon Professional Services for a number of years, I am not privy to any insider secrets about their operations. There's a lot I know about manufacturing that I could share, but you don't really seem that interested in hearing it. You seem more intent on railing against Canon for their battery prices while completely ignoring the tremendous amount of technology that camera you're holding contains and the relatively cheap price you were able to get it for, all things considered.

Wow, another way off-base, inflammatory post. What a surprise. It's amazing people here have put up with you for this long. You are doing a great job of fulfilling your stereotype though, so keep it up!

You are way off-base because (1) I have not issued any diatribes, I have merely stated I think Canon batteries are overpriced, and that I don't care for how the firmware handles battery communication with non-Canon batteries (amazing you would call that a diatribe...sheesh), and (2) I do, in fact, recognize and appreciate the technology in the tiny HD camera I hold in my hand, and the fact that I didn't pay an arm and a leg for it. I recently upgraded from my trusty TRV-900 and I am amazed at the progress in the last 10 years.

And clearly other people share my opinion about Canon batteries. Instead of painting me as some confused whacko, you ought to take another look at your hard-line position...

[CycleWriter]

I'll just say this and then we can either move on or not. Canon is very protective of their engineering. I have seen what goes into lens manufacture and they spend a lot of money on not just their design and engineering, but in their manufacturing processes for all their products. They also patent a lot of their engineering and are not very open when it comes to 3rd party manufacturers. Almost anything made by 3rd party companies has to be reverse engineered, but is still reproduced at considerably less expense. Canon does this not because they don't want competition for their products, but because they want to assure a higher level of compatibility and quality for their customers. This much I have been told directly by Chuck Westfall at Canon. While you may find their accessories overpriced, I don't, especially when unlike some other companies (Sony and Apple, for instance) Canon does not employ proprietary hardware designs that force you to have to buy only their accessories. Canon sells their cameras at relatively low margins in hopes that they will make up the difference in accessory sales. Still, you are free to go elsewhere for your accessory needs even if you may have to give up a feature or two in doing so to save yourself money. The choice is still yours and Canon is powerless to stop you. Your argument, while certainly valid as your opinion, might have more merit if you were somehow being forced to buy only that expensive Canon battery. You are not. Complaining about it publicly seems like wasted energy. You've already spoken with your wallet.

[warriorking]

I have been using non Canon batteries in my HG10 as well as my HG21 withoout a single problem, canon went the same route in the propriatary Hot shoe on their camcorders as well as the new batteries, its about profit, Its their right, but its also my right to find a cheaper work around ,,,which I do, the money I saved help me buy some really helpful add ons......

[jrod81]

got the new battery in and all is great now!

[stockstradr]

Follow-up:

We've used the battery I bought from Lunchbox's web site now for a week or two. Works great. This is the highest cap one with the LED's that give some indication of cap remaining. I recommend this battery. Price is great also.

Oh, and what feeling do you imagine you'll feel when EVERY TIME you slide the non-OEM battery onto the S100, it forces you to confirm through its annoying menu that yes I agree "OK" to use non-standard battery? What a joke.

This does NOT make me annoyed by the non-OEM battery. Instead, I'm filled with a bit of glee that I found a lower cost workaround for Canon's ridiculous battery prices! You'll find yourself thinking as you press the OK button, "Here you go, you monopolistic-corporate-giant, you can just take THAT (non-Canon battery) and eat it!"

[MikeSD]

Originally Posted by CycleWriter
I ascribed to you the same as anyone else would after reading your diatribes. Other than having been a member of Canon Professional Services for a number of years, I am not privy to any insider secrets about their operations. There's a lot I know about manufacturing that I could share, but you don't really seem that interested in hearing it. You seem more intent on railing against Canon for their battery prices while completely ignoring the tremendous amount of technology that camera you're holding contains and the relatively cheap price you were able to get it for, all things considered.

Wow, another way off-base, inflammatory post. What a surprise. It's amazing people here have put up with you for this long. You are doing a great job of fulfilling your stereotype though, so keep it up!

You are way off-base because (1) I have not issued any diatribes, I have merely stated I think Canon batteries are overpriced,

How on earth is that inflamatory? He's 100% dead on accurate.

This is NOT just a Canon philosophy. ANY (repeat ANY and ALL) original equipment batteries cost much more than aftermarket batteries. Fact of life. AND the technology in these batteries, does cost money to engineer. I'm a 30 year practicing electrical engineer and know what goes into designing products. A company has the right to price their products, to recoup engineering and development time. It's done every day, in every industry.

The real issue I see here is

• Canon batteries cost more
• You don't want to pay the price

The solution is simple.. buy something else... but don't come crying to Canon, if your camera is damaged. But you know what... I bet you would!

[Sam7]

can someone at least tell us the run time on these batteries.

[no8rf]

Lunchbox I love reading the answers to questions on this site. So I'm getting ready to purchase the HG-21, I see you now sell this battery and charger is that correct ? I like the price as well, second I'm reading that everytime you turn on the camcorder you will have to tell the unit to continue to use this battery is that also correct?, you were also concerned that Canon my somehow disable the led's on the back of a non canon battery so they do not work with the camcorder have you found this to be the case as well, Any help you can offer me woule be great.

James

[Lunchbox]

I believe there is a warning everytime you start the camera about the battery. You can just ignore that warning.

you were also concerned that Canon my somehow disable the led's on the back of a non canon battery so they do not work with the camcorder have you found this to be the case as well, Any help you can offer me woule be great.

I have never said that. The LED on the back of the battery is a feature by the battery. Camera has no way to disable that LED indicator.

[no8rf]

I believe there is a warning everytime you start the camera about the battery. You can just ignore that warning.



I have never said that. The LED on the back of the battery is a feature by the battery. Camera has no way to disable that LED indicator.

Luchbox great thanks for the info, Canon stated with the supplied video software I could make a standard DVD disk to play on non-HD devices but I have read where others say that program is junk, can you suggest a program that is easy to use, Oh I'll be ordering two battires from you soon.

James

[Lunchbox]

James, most bundled software aren't perform quite as well. There're lots of discussion about what software to use. It depends on your budget and how deep you can tackle the learning curve. I think it's Premiere and Vegas are the most popular software around here. Read more on this

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=14773

[paul440]

The BP-827 batteries Taky is selling here are amazing. I bought 3 from him. But they last so long, I typically only end up draining one for all my shooting!

They last a long long time, seem to recharge in less than 1/2 an hour and have the DC socket on the side for easy recharging with the charger you already get with the camera. And they are as cheap as cheaps.

The camera complains when you turn it on that it cant communicate with these batteries - but big deal, this is minor. You just "OK" that message and you are good to go. It only wanted to communicate with the battery so it could display the juice remaining on the LCD screen. But these batteries have their own little LED meter on the side which is probably the same accuracy - so you lose nothing in functionality.

And Taky's service is as amazing as everyone says here. He responds incredibly fast to queries, is very helpful, and offers fair and honest advice on his products.

I was a little dubious about buying non-standard batteries for my HF200, as I'd had some useless experiences with mobile phone batteries on eBay. But these batteries are amazing - go for it. You wont be disappointed.

[nixcad]

I've been using a Sony battery (7.2v, 4200 mAh) to power my HG20 and it's been working fine. Since I can't connect the battery directly I've made a "hack" to plug the battery into the AC input (without the original battery attached, of course).

The camera "thinks" it's connected through the AC power but in fact there's a li-ion battery providing enough power to keep it on. The interesting part is that the camera will show a "low battery" icon when the voltage drops to ~6v (I'm using a multimeter to follow the discharge) and then will turn it off as usual.

I think it's a camera protection feature to check voltage level. Does the same icon appear using off-brand batteries?

P.S: I'm still planning to buy Lunchbox's batteries, but it won't stop me from doing some experiments

[zagnut]

I've been using a Sony battery (7.2v, 4200 mAh) to power my HG20 and it's been working fine. Since I can't connect the battery directly I've made a "hack" to plug the battery into the AC input (without the original battery attached, of course).

The camera "thinks" it's connected through the AC power but in fact there's a li-ion battery providing enough power to keep it on. The interesting part is that the camera will show a "low battery" icon when the voltage drops to ~6v (I'm using a multimeter to follow the discharge) and then will turn it off as usual.

Interesting. I've been thinking about making my own rechargeable ni-mh c cell packs and connecting them the same way. For $90, I can have me a 9000mah battery pack and charger. I'm curious if the HF11 shows the "low battery" status as well when connected like this.
What is your HG20's AC input voltage listed as? The jack on my HF11 says 8.4 volts. Don't see why I couldn't get away with 7.2.

[nixcad]

Interesting. I've been thinking about making my own rechargeable ni-mh c cell packs and connecting them the same way. For $90, I can have me a 9000mah battery pack and charger. I'm curious if the HF11 shows the "low battery" status as well when connected like this.
What is your HG20's AC input voltage listed as? The jack on my HF11 says 8.4 volts. Don't see why I couldn't get away with 7.2.

They're quite similar, your HF11 will surely warn you if the voltage is too low to operate.

You'd be fine with a pack of 6 cells, it doesn't have to be 8.4v, unless you're planning to charge your battery with the that pack, which I believe is not the case.

[zagnut]

You'd be fine with a pack of 6 cells, it doesn't have to be 8.4v, unless you're planning to charge your battery with the that pack, which I believe is not the case.

I figured the extra volt was for charging purposes, as I can't possibly imagine what else it would be used for. Even only using 6 cells will get me 4500mah. If I can't complete the short things I normally record with that, than there's no hope for me.
Wiring things like this up is simple. I'm surprised more people don't do it.