How far does it go?

[santucci]

Dear friends owners of HV20,

I’m a owner of a higher model camera that got very exited by the HV20. In a way, the HV20 was exacly what I was waiting for, for a couple years. A small 24p camera with a great price. Thanks Canon! Major congratulations for this one. I really didn’t see it coming aftar all the 24F models that were made.

Anyway, the reason I writing is that I do work on a higher level of professional cameras and I would like to know who far can I go with the little one. I hope some one from Canon get to read this post.

I’m a filmmaker and I own a Sony F900. From my expertise in the field, the major points to get close to a film result are: True 24 frames per second progressive capture, 1/48 shutter speed, and a gama curve that tries to mimic the low end and high end curves (in other words lift blacks and compress the high lights).

How to achive that on the HV20 for a professional work, such as a documentary that could benefit greatly from the size of the HV20? There is nothing out there in the professional world that will offer what the HV20 does for it’s size and mobility.

After experimenting with the HV20 it seems that the way to get the cinematic look would be thru the CINE MODE, however it seems that the only way to maintain the 48 shutter is thru TV mode which would loose the gamma characteristics that are achieved in the CINE MODE. It appears that in CINE MODE the camera alters shutter speed to handle for correct exposer.

I’m curios to understand what the camera is doing by it self to correct for exposure. Usually on a proffesional camera you have: + /- DBs , Lenses Iris, and ND filters and shutter. On the HV20 it seems that it uses shutter and iris plus something else that might be a hidden DB control.

I would love to find out what the camera does exacly but the bottom line is: Can I have it with 1/48 shutter, cine mode gama, and not have that changed automaticly by the camera when trying to auto adjust for over or under exposer?

It seems that if I set in TV for 1/48 and than change to cine mode and put in manual iris it might work. But the question is: when you goin cine mode can you lock to a specific shutter such as 1/48?

Another way would be go to TV and try to adjust the gama thru the other settings in CUSTOM IMAGE EFFECTS. Would that give the same characteristics of CINE MODE?

I hope some one from Canon can answer this one. For the digital independent film community would be great.

Thanks Roberto Santucci

[neocastillo]

I know that even in TV mode there is some hidden automatic gain going on. There is a video either on this forum or on DVINFO.net forums that explains how to tell how much gain in being used as well as work the manual controls on the camera.

[dasbin]

Cine Mode automatically locks at 1/48th shutter. Maybe "locks" is not the right word, because in certain situations it will dip to 1/24 or lower (very low light), but it does its best to stay there.
IMO the primary problem with Cine mode is the softening it applies.

[24Peter]

CineMode and Tv mode are mutally exclusive with this camera. If you want to lock your shutter in at 1/48 you'll need Tv mode. CineMode will adjust your shutter to compensate for changes in exposure ("trying" to stay at 1/48th seems a little vague for me). However, you may be able to lock you shutter with your overall exposure by using the EXP control in the joystick menu. Just make sure you're at 1/48th when you lock your EXP (inserting a mini-SD card and half depressing the "Photo" button tells you your shutter/apeture.)

The has been a lot of discussion about the "extended dynamic range" of CineMode. To me it's just lowered contrast and brightness which you can achieve other ways. I also don't like the softness that CineMode introduces.

There's some test footage by Solomon Chase here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=93855 shot in Tv mode that IMO is some of the best looking stuff I've seen (including my own footage) from the HV20. He lists his camera settings later in the thread but he basically underexposed everything in Tv mode (as well as turning down the contrast) and then brought up some of the highlights in Vegas 7 for a killer look

[Worley]

Av mode and Tv mode... these confuse me especially when exposure is discussed too.

In Av mode I control the aperture, but the camera controls the shutter. So what does the exposure do - is it changing the shutter speed?

In Tv mode I control the shutter speed, and the camera controls the aperture. So what does the exposure control do now - is it changing the aperture?

Both the shutter speed and the aperture affect the amount of light falling on the sensor, so what is the exposure control actually doing?

And why would cinemode soften the picture? Is cinemode the same as 25P (24P) of is it just some kind of special effect?

Worley

[rsovitzky]

Worley,

Av and Tv are just two sides of the same coin, so to speak. The combination of those two determines Exposure. Chossing one of those modes just says 'I'll set this factor of the exposure and you (camera) calculate the other to give a correct exposure.

I use Av a lot to control depth of field. Low numbers (1.8, 2, 3.5, etc) give shallow depth - things go out of focus more readily if not at the same distance as the subject. High numbers give greatest DOF when having as much in focus as possible, regardless of distance, is more important or desirable. Portrait modes typically use lowest aperttures (largest opening) to get backgrounds out of focus intentionally.

Hope that helps a bit...

Rick

[Worley]

Thanks Rick,

what you say tallies with what I guessed from reading the manual to my present camcorder.

What bugs me though is that in Av mode, even if I set the aperture to 1.8, if I zoom in, the camera over-rides my choice and reduces the aperture to 2.4. Dratted thing! I WANT CONTROL!!!

But what about the exposure control? I can set this in either mode. It is just a crude way of setting aperture or shutter values when in the opposing mode (changing shutter when in Av, or aperture when in Tv)? I'm guessing that's what's happening.

Does anyone know if the manual controls offered by the HV20 are better than the MVX40? I know there is no real focus ring, but this need not be a great problem so long as the focus "dial" is easy to use.

Worley

[santucci]

Thanks Peter!

I will try the SD card trick. The other thing I want to do, is a head to head test against the F900. Just to see the difference between difference in pix quality against difference in price.

[santucci]

"the camera over-rides my choice and reduces the aperture to 2.4" That's very normal and it happens with any zoom lenses. Even in professional expensive ones. I believe it has to do with the internal optics of the lenses. In other words; everytime you zoom in all the way in, you will probably loose aperture. It might not happen if it is a short zoom lenses. Never the case I believe with consumer cameras.

[Worley]

I kind of understand why it would do it, but I don't like not being in control.

I am a control freak!

Worley

[dasbin]

Then set your aperture to 2.4 before you zoom in and you'll still feel the control, heh.
Seriously, Santucci's right. It's a physical limitation of the lens. Making a constant-aperture zoom requires a lot more glass, which is why you generally only find it on expensive lenses.

[Monyx]

Yes, the lense cannot maintain its wide-open aperture across the whole zoom range i.e. it is not a constant maximum aperture lens unlike expensive pro photographic lense like say a Nikkor 80-200 f/2.8.