Workflow - what do you use?

[Redsandro]

There's not really a subforum for general 'workflow' so here goes..

I notice a lot of people use DGIndex. I don't know it. I read the documentation and I don't get it, what does it do that's handy?

If I don't capture directly into the NLE, I work like this:

HDVSplit or NLE -> capture.m2t (1:1)
HDTVtoMPEG2 -> capture.mpg (1:1)
AviSynth -> frameserve.avs (1:1)
VirtualDub -> dv.avi, huffy.avi (lossy/1:##)

Now usually I only do the first two steps since 25p out of the camera is perfect. However, I like to convert to true 25p files (not 50i), and store back without transcoding into MPEG or AVI. Is that what DGIndex is good for?

[lordtangent]

Now usually I only do the first two steps since 25p out of the camera is perfect. However, I like to convert to true 25p files (not 50i), and store back without transcoding into MPEG or AVI. Is that what DGIndex is good for?

Why do you need to do any processing to get 25p? If you shoot in the 25p format to begine with no processing is required.

What is DGIndex/DGDecode good for? I can just describe how I use it.

HDVSplit -> capture.m2t

(Now it gets a little complex)

DGIndex ( capture.m2t )

....indexes MPEG in mt2 and demuxes. It also sets up an AVISynth script using a templete. The AVISynth script recombines the audio /remove pulldown/ does my special rec709 color conversion/ makes slow mo... all kinds of other image processing... anything that AVISynth has

AVISynth (which is using DGDecode to read the mt2) -> vfapi

.... vfapi is an avi wrapper program that serves frames from AVISynth directly. SO.... no transcoding... (other than demuxing the audio) and I get the benefit of using AVISynth to pre-process the mt2 in any way I see fit... remove 3:2 pull down, delace with samrt delacing (for slow-mo), I can even scale it on the fly so the output is smaller. (For NLEs that have crappy internal scaling)

The down side is that this big chain up-stream of the NLE is not realtime. vfapi is pretty slow. BUt you can make low-res proxies and do the realtime editing part with those and switch in the vfapi avis for the final render.

[Redsandro]

Sounds great. Do I understand correctly that you edit with piped frameservers, nowhere did you output an intermediate file which recompressed the video?

DGIndex sounds a little like HDTVtoMPG2, except that the latter generates a new file (without recompressing) so you won't have to frameserve.

I think the AVISynth magic is unnecesary for the PAL version since no pulldown is required (right?). And since AVISynth is a frameserver itself, why is vfapi required?

(just some questions to broaden my horizon)

Why do you need to do any processing to get 25p? If you shoot in the 25p format to begine with no processing is required.

I've explained here:
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=17947#post17947

[lordtangent]

Sounds great. Do I understand correctly that you edit with piped frameservers, nowhere did you output an intermediate file which recompressed the video?

...

I think the AVISynth magic is unnecesary for the PAL version since no pulldown is required (right?). And since AVISynth is a frameserver itself, why is vfapi required?

I've explained here:
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=17947#post17947

That's right. The only intermediate I output is a proxy. The piped stuff is too slow to edit realtime so I use the proxy for the "offline" edit. I swap out the proxy for the full res stuff for the final render.

I read your above post and now I understand why you need to progressiffy your 25p footage. Is it possible to disable field rendering in Avid? Maybe you can run a 1080i project but also turn off field rendering in the preferences. If it's possible it would fix your rendering problem.

I use vfapi because not every program can talk directly with AVISynth. For example, Vegas, which I'm evaluating and will most likely switch to from my current editor. ( Premiere ) There is a Premiere frame server loader plug-in though. (I haven't tried it yet) Other packages might have an AVISynth plug-in available. It would be something to check if you are interested in this workflow.

And as I've mentioned before I still like keeping AVISynth in the chain because no matter how brain-dead the NLE software is, you can always fix things up and make the video stream right. (For example getting control of the rec709 --> RGB conversion if it's something that needs to be done, delacing and making slow-mo, or taking advantage of the superior image scaling in AVISynth) All the functions other than 3:2 pull down removal are things you could also use for PAL. So, the AVISynth isn't ONLY useful for get getting rid of the 3:2 pulldown. In your particular case you could totally use it to frame serve "progressive" stuff from your "laced" 25p.

[drmadison]

From the Mac side of things I've been using either iMovie or DVHSCap to grab the video off the camera. Then if necessary I go through the clip with quicktime pro and cut it into the various shots and just save those out (raw saving, no reencoding).

Then I've been running them through JES to reverse telecine.

From there, I have the nice 24p clips to do whatever I will (simple cutting down in QT Pro, or importing into an NLE, though really the only NLE that will handle 24p properly is FCS which I haven't dropped the 1300 for yet)

[Redsandro]

Thanks for the replies.

@lord:

Is it possible to disable field rendering in Avid? Maybe you can run a 1080i project but also turn off field rendering in the preferences.

Not the way I'd like; I can choose a field-dominance or 'progressive' which throws every second field away, which is not what I want.

I didn't realise AVIsynth wasn't supported everywhere. For me it just worked when I needed it to so I sort of took it for granted. I know it can do a lot, I just mainly used it for things vfapi seems to be made for, and some field-swapping.

However for '50i' -> 25p I still like to figure a footage converting way, so I can use it online without proxy.

[Frank]

1. Capture with HDVSplit (output is .m2t)
2. Split m2t into pieces ("shots") using VideoReDo Plus (output is .mpg)
3. Edit in Premiere Elements 3.0/determine which shots will be used (use .mt2 or .mpg)
4. Process selected shots with DVFilm Maker to remove pulldown and improve chroma (output is .avi)
5. Apply effects to selected shots in After Effects CS3 (use .avi, output .avi)
6. Substitute the .avi files for the .mpg files in PE3
7. Export an uncompressed AVI of the final edit from PE3 (output is .avi)
8. Apply effects, titles, and color grade in After Effects.
9. Render an uncompressed 1440x1080 AVI from AE (hi def master)
10. Render an uncompressed 720x480 AVI from AE (SD master)
11. Make a SD DVD using TMPGEnc Plus and DVD-Lab Pro.

[Redsandro]

Hi Frank,

In your workflow, there are two steps of AVI between the initial MPEG and the final AVI. What codec qualifies for your personal quality control?

[Frank]

Hi Frank,

In your workflow, there are two steps of AVI between the initial MPEG and the final AVI. What codec qualifies for your personal quality control?

I am not sure what is being used to decode the MPEG-2; I use DVFilm Maker for that initial conversion. The output AVI is uncompressed.

In Premiere Elements I am going AVI to AVI and choose "uncompressed", so again, I'm not sure exactly what is going on under the hood.

In both cases I get about the same file size on output, about 6.8 GB/min.
So far I have been working on a short film, so disk space has not been an issue.

I'm sorry I can't give more info about exactly what is happening technically; I check the quality of the output by using extreme magnification in After Effects.

[Redsandro]

Sounds like lossless anyway. That's good. As long as it fits on your hard drives.

[FreddieZ]

1. Capture with HDVSplit (output is .m2t)
2. Split m2t into pieces ("shots") using VideoReDo Plus (output is .mpg)
...

Thanks for mentioning VideoReDo, the trial looks great.

[Lunchbox]

Womble MPEG Wizard is also a very good MPEG editor. It can trim and split clips without any re-encoding.

http://www.womble.com/

I tried VideoReDo and Womble both. I found Womble is a lot easier to use. It's just my personal opinion.

[FreddieZ]

Womble MPEG Wizard is also a very good MPEG editor. It can trim and split clips without any re-encoding.

http://www.womble.com/

I tried VideoReDo and Womble both. I found Womble is a lot easier to use. It's just my personal opinion.

Thanks, Taky. I'm taking a look.

re: HDV split- it would be *great* if this tool could append the timecode start location to the m2t file it creates. This would permit some sort of pathway back to original HV20 tape, if needed.

[freeflight]

What is the advantage of capture .m2t and transfer to mpg later?
Why don't you capture .mpg to start with?

HDVSplit or NLE -> capture.m2t (1:1)
HDTVtoMPEG2 -> capture.mpg (1:1)

[Lunchbox]

I answerred you in another thread you posted.

It depends on which program you use to get the file format. If you want to capture with Premiere Pro, you have no choice but getting a .mpeg file.

I captured with HDVSplit as the file is small, won't hog memory. easy simple capture. I hated premiere will index the file and perform audio conforming after that. Most of the time, my laptop won't response much during that process.

[Redsandro]

What is the advantage of capture .m2t and transfer to mpg later?
Why don't you capture .mpg to start with?

There is no advantage. My NLE (and I thought HDVSplit too) can only output .m2t. However, many apps only eat .mpg.

[freeflight]

This is a very good point. I tried hdvsplit and so far the .m2t files work fine in Premiere.

I answerred you in another thread you posted.

It depends on which program you use to get the file format. If you want to capture with Premiere Pro, you have no choice but getting a .mpeg file.

I captured with HDVSplit as the file is small, won't hog memory. easy simple capture. I hated premiere will index the file and perform audio conforming after that. Most of the time, my laptop won't response much during that process.

[rarefootagefilms]

Ok, I inported the files into imovie. I downloaded the JES program. Now what? How do I get the clips into the JES program if I don't have Quicktime Pro?

[eskin]

Here's my 24p workflow:

1) Capture with HDVSplit
2) Transcode to Cineform intermediate .avi and perform 3:2 pulldown with Cineform HDLink.
3) Edit using the Cineform .avi files in Vegas
4) Export as HDV 720p
5) Transcode to h.264 720p with MPEG StreamClip

[Hallvalla]

Ok, I inported the files into imovie. I downloaded the JES program. Now what? How do I get the clips into the JES program if I don't have Quicktime Pro?

Try MPEGStreamclip.

I think it is a free program, but for full functionality you'll have to buy a $20 item from Apple. It will prompt you in the program, so you don't have to go hunt it down.

For Mac, I use:

1. Capture: DVHSCap
2. MPEGStreamclip - (MPEG to AIC) you can also save out individual clips (no scene detection though)
3. JES Deinterlacer to remove pulldown
4. NLE (only FCP or Premiere handle 24P on Mac)