Canon HF S10/S100

[cspak71]

...or a worthwhile hack...whichever comes first.

I would love to see a good hack on the HF series for native 24p.

[cspak71]

I guess so. But it's only the difference in checking the "remove pulldown" box. You wind up with true 24p to edit on a 23.98 just the same way that cameras which cost 3 to 6 times as much do it.

I really don't care if I have to check "remove pulldown" when I bring it in, the same way you have to on the HPX 500 ... wait make that cameras costing 10 X's as much.

If you wound up with 24 frames over a 29.97 timeline then I would care, vs 23.98 over a 23.98. Seems like a non issue if your mouse works and you have opposable thumbs / all of your finers

Out of curiousity, when you mention "remove pulldown" box... are you talking about an editing program such as premiere? But I think you're right, native 24p, and current 24p seems to be a marginal difference.

[Erik Bien]

Thread size might be 58mm but the glass might be a little smaller than that size.

Since the lens specs are more similar than different (6.1-61mm actual/43.6-436mm 35mm equivalent for the HVx0 vs. 6.4-64mm actual/43.5-435mm 35mm equivalent for the HF S10) I'm guessing the larger filter thread has more to do with the relocated IAF sensor than a whole new lens.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Out of curiousity, when you mention "remove pulldown" box... are you talking about an editing program such as premiere? But I think you're right, native 24p, and current 24p seems to be a marginal difference.

Yeah. Talking about FCP. Advanced pulldown is not a big hurdle. Been around since the DVX. In cam's like the HPX500 and HVX200 which shoot DVCpro HD shooting with pulldown is a waste of storage, but that's the only way those cams shoot 1080. In 720 they can shoot just 24p without the extra frames. and the storage savings of 720 24pn (native, i.e. no extra frames) and 720 24p (24p over 60i) is pretty great. But with AVCHD I can't imagine the storage size would be much different.

This is one reason it may have been more of a priority to implement the native 24p on the camera with the less efficient codec which shoots to tape - the HV40 - you might get a significant increase in recording time by going native because you aren't recording frames you don't need.

In fact, maybe there's a good reason to not go native with the flash cameras. 24p over 60 is slightly more versitile. That footage could be more easily edited into a 60i time line for example if you had to mix footage. So since the storage difference is probably minimal with AVCHD why not have the extra option in post? Sure it's probably rare that you need it, but it's there.

I was just P2 tech for a feature shot on the HPX500. And the workflow was the same at least in the broad strokes. You take the 1080 24p over 60 cards, and bring them into FCP applying advanced pulldown.

[dcloud]

According to Canon, the HF-S series require a minimum of 3 LUX in their low light ability, while the HV series can manage with 2 LUX. This indeed means that the HF-S series are a bit worse than the HV seies in low light support. But their better visual quality overall will probably make up for that problem. Personally, I am either shooting outdoors in sunlight, or I use my continuous lights, so I will not be seeing that problem much.

I know read somewhere that those specs on lux that are put out arent really the best measurement for sensitivity. I just checked xha1 specs and it has 0.3 lux too and its waay far better in low light than hv20

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>I really don't care if I have to check "remove pulldown" when I bring it in

Sorry, but this is not possible for all editors. On my editor, Sony Vegas, I would have to bring it in via cineform NeoHD instead of using it directly in the timeline after importing. That's a major annoyance for me. And let's don't forget that people don't have $500 to buy NeoHD, plus a $15 license from CoreAVC to remove pulldown from AVCHD footage. The freeware method that I have on my blog for AVCHD pulldown removal is not fool proof, it creates A/V sync issues overtime.

So yes, not having native 24p it's a major deal and blow to many of us. Pretty much, the only people who have it well is After Effects and maybe Premiere users, as these are the only NLEs that can remove pulldown in the timeline, without additional steps. Even on FCP you need to get the run-around on one of their external utils to remove pulldown for AVCHD/HDV and then import it to FCP in the timeline. That's too much work IMO.

[cspak71]

>I really don't care if I have to check "remove pulldown" when I bring it in

Sorry, but this is not possible for all editors. On my editor, Sony Vegas, I would have to bring it in via cineform NeoHD instead of using it directly in the timeline after importing. That's a major annoyance for me. And let's don't forget that people don't have $500 to buy NeoHD, plus a $15 license from CoreAVC to remove pulldown from AVCHD footage. The freeware method that I have on my blog for AVCHD pulldown removal is not fool proof, it creates A/V sync issues overtime.

So yes, not having native 24p it's a major deal and blow to many of us. Pretty much, the only people who have it well is After Effects and maybe Premiere users, as these are the only NLEs that can remove pulldown in the timeline, without additional steps. Even on FCP you need to get the run-around on one of their external utils to remove pulldown for AVCHD/HDV and then import it to FCP in the timeline. That's too much work IMO.

Hmm... interesting, but from reading your previous posts regarding the HFS10 and the HV40, I take it that you'd still take the HFS10 over the HV40? Even without the native 24p?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Yes, that's correct. Although, I might wait for August to see what "refresh" Canon will do to the HF-S series. I might be lucky and get 24p native support in the refreshed model.

[DrDave]

This looks like a great CAM. We will have to see about the lowlight capabilities, since that is dependent on on various factors. I can't see a sensor that size having worse LL capabilities, given Canon's record so far. I find the face tracking intriguing, if I read this right it would follow a person in focus. Hope they keep the spotlight mode. Hope the price is right!

[Emanuel]

The worst lowlight performance vs. HV40 comes from the pixel density side.

[Emanuel]

Why not the HF S100 instead? It should be circa $200 cheaper.

[xtazysv]

Hey all. I've just noticed the next line from Canon's cameras for 2009.

VIXIA HF S10 for example is the top of the line and I think it will top the HV's.

*1/2.6-inch CMOS at Approx. 8.59 Megapixels
*DIGIC DV III Image Processor
*zebra pattern , test tones & GAIN CONTROL FROM MENU (0,6,12,18db)
*3 sec pre-record feature

I think we will finaly have something that will end Canon HV20/30's supremacy. Check the cameras out on Canon's websited.

On a notice: I'm actualy sad because I was really happy with my HG20.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the new cam series.

Cheers,
Tudor M

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the new cam series.

I blogged about the new HF-S series compared to the HV series here:
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/0...canon-cameras/

[net]

Is the HF S10 going to require higher pc and/or pc video card requirements, (even if unofficially)?

[dcloud]

Hey all. I've just noticed....

i thin that was discussed before :P

[1]

i thin that was discussed before :P

It was merged from a different thread.

[dcloud]

oh. my bad.

[bluesgeek]

How would we know it's merged?

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

>I really don't care if I have to check "remove pulldown" when I bring it in

Sorry, but this is not possible for all editors. On my editor, Sony Vegas, I would have to bring it in via cineform NeoHD instead of using it directly in the timeline after importing. That's a major annoyance for me. And let's don't forget that people don't have $500 to buy NeoHD, plus a $15 license from CoreAVC to remove pulldown from AVCHD footage. The freeware method that I have on my blog for AVCHD pulldown removal is not fool proof, it creates A/V sync issues overtime.

So yes, not having native 24p it's a major deal and blow to many of us. Pretty much, the only people who have it well is After Effects and maybe Premiere users, as these are the only NLEs that can remove pulldown in the timeline, without additional steps. Even on FCP you need to get the run-around on one of their external utils to remove pulldown for AVCHD/HDV and then import it to FCP in the timeline. That's too much work IMO.

Well this is a bad assumption on my part. I never dreamed that Canon would not have tagged the unneeded frames for easy removal on capture or import.

Still if you can ultimately get 24p out of it ... also if you can set up what ever process to remove the pulldown without baby sitting it and that is quicker than real time capture of tape ... then I'd say we're back to a wash again.

[1]

... then I'd say we're back to a wash again.

Yeah, I sort of agree.

Regarding the HV40 and its native 24p:
For anyone that DOESN'T have a HV20 or HV30 it's GREAT cam.
And simple &easy acquisition of TRUE 24p is a bonus.
It would be dubious to SELL an existing HV20 or HV30 to get a HV40 IMHO though.

BTW,
are you the JDS that shot some BTS stuff at a HVX-instruction meeting in NYC a couple o' years ago?

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Haha, yes but now I'm a Mod at DVXuser and teach the HVX Training Bootcamps with Barry Green and David Jimerson, most recently also at Abel Cinetech in NY last March.

The three of us also have three short films at festivals this year:
http://frenchquarterfeatures.com/fre..._in_exile.html
with David and Barry producing and me directing.

Hm ... #1 ... traveling mal ... hmm ... wondering who you really are now ... and how you would remember me from such marginal participation on my part in the Bootcamp at that point ... hmmm ... I also thought you started this place, but your post count only says 34 ... hmm ...

I think I mentioned earlier that I just sold my HVX and Letus extreme and several other things in order to simplify / downgrade to something smaller and simpler. I don't really shoot my ownstuff anymore / needed the money for a cross country move. So was basically looking for a "freedom rig" meaning if suddenly no DP's will work with me or I want to shoot a mumble core opus on my own every Saturday over the course of the year I could go right ahead and do that.

I bought an HF11 and Letus mini and was really dissapointed with the low light performance, i.e., ghosting/trailing. With the announcements of Scarlet's all in price (though I am sure it will be a bit more) and these new Canon cam's it's not time to rush into anything, so returning the hf11/letus mini to B&H. Won't buy anything until I have to for some project, or until a lot more is known about these cams.

[1]

Oh, very cool!
I have to check out some of the shorts when I get a minute!

Cams: yeah, I sold my HVX too recently, and now have a 5D Mark II (although that was bought mainly as a 300D replacement, not really for video; certainly not for video only). Wouldn't mind a small "holiday cam" and the new Canons do look sweet.
Maybe a HF S10, but it's a little pricey for what I'd use it for.

[Tomtebo]

I think this cam is very neat! Put the pulldown problem, is that just for NTSC or even we in europe? I mean, this is not tape so im comfused

[spideralex90]

I think this cam is very neat! Put the pulldown problem, is that just for NTSC or even we in europe? I mean, this is not tape so im comfused

Pulldown is solely a NTSC problem.

[Emanuel]

And let's don't forget that people don't have $500 to buy NeoHD, plus a $15 license from CoreAVC to remove pulldown from AVCHD footage.

Not necessarily. You have this for a few bucks:

http://www.cineform.com/products/NeoScene.htm

EDIT -- What am I saying? You posted @ your own blog too:

«Update: Cineform now sells a new product, called NeoSCENE, that removes pulldown of HDV and AVCHD. Costs just $129.»

BTW, I've checked you give the fair value to Cinemode now. Weren't you skeptic about it before?