Which CANON High Definition consumer camcorder?

[mintay]

I would like to start a 'Which CANON High Definition consumer camcorder?' thread.
I'm doing this because information about HD consumer camcorders is spread across the forum and hard to interpret.

First of all PLEASE DO NOT COMPARE CAMCORDERS DISCUSSED BELOW WITH ANY OF THE HIGH END ONES such as Sony HDR-FX1, Canon XH A1S, etc, etc.
Please do not discuss them here. No SD camcorders either(No vx's, no Gl's, etc).

My knowledge and personal opinion is based on what I managed to read out from many reviews.

I am starting this thread because I am in need of buying a new camcorder. For the past few years I've been filming with my 1 chip SD camcorder and a Century Optics MKII Baby Death (37mm thread). Recently I bought a Full HD TV and I have decided to shoot in HD either.
From the information I gathered Canon's products seem to be the best decision.
Unfortunatelly I have a couple issues to consider.

Canon has 3 types of HD consumer camcorders right now.
HF series- with flash memory
HG series- with a hard disk
HV series- miniDV

To make things more understandable.
Picture Quality: hf11=hg20=hg21 (max 24mbps)
Hf100 and hf10 end up @ 17 mbps

24 mbps allows higher detail to be retained in any panning or moving shots. With only 17 mbps, detail is dropped during any motion.
However I also read that the detail that's 'dropped', tends to be very fine detail, most people wouldn't notice the difference.

Both HG and HF record in AVCHD. Which format to choose is just not a simple answer at this stage of development.
AVCHD uses MPEG4 which has a much better compression algorithm than MPEG2. Avchd uses h.264, which is an mpeg4 variant.
HDV right now is easier to edit (Seems that AVCHD is superior in PQ, and so do many others, when comparing AVCHD 24Mbps to HDV Tape Based Footage)
The HF11/10/100 all have a better processor than the HV30/20 line...Also a better CMOS chip for the hf11 ( HV30 1/2.7" vs HF11 1/3.2" )

On the other hand the crispness and lack of noise of the HV30 is very impressing and serves as a reminder that the AVCHD codec still has a ways to go before it can match HDV for unwanted compression artifacting. Artifacting increases as data rate decreases. It is a function of the compression algorithm.
In actuality AVCHD specs out at 1920X1080 and HDV at 1440X1080. Both have the same vertical pixel resolution, the difference is in the theoretical horizontal pixel resolution.

Now a slight comparison between three of Canon's top consumer models

hg21 - viewfinder, HDD, PRICE, AVCHD (37mm thread)
hf11 - no viewfinder smaller, cheaper than HG21, Flash, AVCHD (37 mm thread)
hv30 - viewfinder, miniDV ('Tapes are going to die soon.'?!) (43 mm thread-need step dwon ring to use Bdeath)

Canon HG21 is nearly identical to the Canon HG20, but includes a viewfinder, upgraded LCD, and larger 120GB hard drive.
I must say that the viewfinder is a good solution in some circumstances.

You seem to be able to hear the hum of the hard drive on the recording (hg20/21) but I doubt whether it's louder than the miniDV motor noise.
I might get myself an external microphone if needed in both cases.



The last thing I need to add here are my computer specs. I'm not new to video editing. Currently trying out Premiere CS4.

Hp Pavilion dv9700 Notebook PC
Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 @ 2.50 GHz
2 gb of ram (can expand to 4 gb)
Geforce 8600M GS 512mb
Vista 64 bit

When buying this computer this summer I was thinking about editing footage on it, thought it was a good idea? Any comments..


Looking through forums I found this statement..

'You'll feel better about avchd by the end of next year, the computer hardware will be much cheaper than it is now... we went through this exact same scenario when minidv first hit the scene, the computers were way too slow to handle it, and now nobody remembers how bad it was.'

Please help, tell me Your opinions. I will aprreciate, Everybody interested in buying an Hd consumer cam will appreciate.
Which one to choose ?

[Erik Bien]

Welcome to the forum, mintay!

Hope you'll forgive a short response to such a long question: read the title of this website.

[Lunchbox]

I'm moving this thread to the Other Cam subforum.

[mintay]

Welcome to the forum, mintay!

Hope you'll forgive a short response to such a long question: read the title of this website.

I understand what You mean. The HV series are included in my question.

[net]

mintay

It sounds like you understand the differences. You just have to decide what's more important to you.

If price is not a factor, go for the HF11. Better to have flash than an HDD. You will probably have 95% of the people here recommend the HV30. I'm not into tape, so this is just my opinion.

The end of this coming week they're going to announce the newer cams. Maybe you can just wait it out until the Spring when they are released.

[Rumpelgeist]

This topic was discussed to death.

Ok with tape or want tape ==> the HV30
Ok with HDD or like HDD ==> HG10 for better optics and features, or HG21 for higher bitrate
Ok with flash or like flash ==> HF100 for no-nonsense removable media
Want flash with the highest bitrate or want internal flash ==> HF11

[Shadow_7]

The computer seems fine. Unless you want to edit / view AVCHD in realtime. Although some of that depends on the software in use.

Each has their pros and cons.

HF11 - super light, so if you want to hook it up to an RC helicopter...

HG21 - tons of on board storage so if you want to set it and forget it for several hours (with power tether or hefty battery).

HV30 - can't argue with results. But tape noise, have to swap tapes hourly, have to acquire firewire (in my case anyway), have to wait for miniDV captures to use the footage. But zebra, analog input, view finder, and other extras NOT available on other cams (yet).

[trimjim]

The HF11/10/100 all have a better processor than the HV30/20 line...Also a better CMOS chip for the hf11 ( HV30 1/2.7" vs HF11 1/3.2" )

You are confusing your math - 1/2.7" is larger than 1/3.2" in the same way that 1/2" is larger than 1/4".

I have 2 HV30's and am waiting to see next week what Canon announces as the new products. I'm sure that AVCHD or some form of Flash will eventually be the direction of the future, but I need to edit now without adding a lot of extra time into the equation. I know that there are some programs that claim to be able to do this now, but unfortunately they are not the programs that I use.

I made my decision to purchase these two HV30's within the last month as it seems to me that the features of the newer cameras (viewfinder, sensor size, external mic, etc.) are being left off or are of a lesser quality.

HV20/HV30 line is a couple of years old now and seems to have stood quite a bit of scrutiny and still is the front-runner.

Just my 2 cents.