Still torn HV30 or HG20, or wait...

[Shadow_7]

It's been a bit of a windfall month. Most of the musical instruments I've had up for sell since August got bought this month. So I should be able to get my camcorder soon. (or pay off my car, or get some dental work done). But I'm still a bit torn as to what to get.

I like the HV30. Footage from it seems good, and the features seem hard to match. Focus wheel, Zebra, HD webcam? But I'm not sure if that justifies the extra cost of adding a firewire card and tapes to my inventory of stuff. At the moment the HV30 and HG20 are the same price at WalMart.com ($650-ish). My mom works there so I can get 10% off and ship to store free, no taxes since bought online, and all that jazz. Or should I just wait for the HF12/HV40, or whatever the next generation has to offer?

I want Zebra
I want 60i (would prefer true 30p or even 60p)
I want 1920x1080 FullHD
I want focus wheel (if only for effects)
I want webcam (although I can get that via s-video / vcr / capture card too)
I want a great low / no grain image and great low light performance
I want high resolution stills
I want a digital storage workflow
I want loads of zoom
IF I must have AVCHD, I want the 24Mbps or better version.

Since no one cam currently has all of that (for under $1K), I'm hesitant to spend top dollar on a compromise. Should I plunge now on the after christmas specials. Or wait for the next crop of consumer cams? I was sort of sold on the HV30 until I saw that the HG20 had dropped to the same price point.

Target budget $600 (total package), but willing to go to $1,200 for the right cam. Or just wait and wait for scarlet, which is still a little out of my budget, and I'll need something months/years before it's available.

[DaFireMedic]

I want Zebra
I want 60i (would prefer true 30p or even 60p)
I want 1920x1080 FullHD
I want focus wheel (if only for effects)
I want webcam (although I can get that via s-video / vcr / capture card too)
I want a great low / no grain image and great low light performance
I want high resolution stills
I want a digital storage workflow
I want loads of zoom
IF I must have AVCHD, I want the 24Mbps or better version.

My feeling is that we probably won't see a camcorder that meets the criteria you listed better than the HV30 at under $1000 for a while yet, with the exception of the solid state media (I assume that's what you meant by digital storage workflow, as the HV30 uses digital storage in the form of MiniDV tape)

My opinion is to buy the HV30. I want similar things in a camcorder that you have listed, and right now I would buy a new HV30 again if anything happened to mine.

[Shadow_7]

If the HV30 recorded to flash or a HDD, and was completely USB based, I'd buy it no questions asked. But alas not the case. And all of the other options are lacking in features. It's not that I don't want the HV30, but by the time I add up firewire, tapes, and such, the costs are more significant than just settling for the other options.

Case in point, HG20, I could get one stock, and use it and interface with my existing computer without additional purchases. The HV30 would require a PCIe x1 firewire card (only open slot left), so $60+, and $6 an hour (tape) to operate. Plus head cleaning tape, and I still wouldn't have shot any footage at that point.

I also want analog video input, which is lacking from almost all except the HV30. To crest that $1K mark, I'd want a larger sensor that actually made a noticeable difference.

[badhairdude]

amazon = $530 for the hv30

[Shadow_7]

B&H - $550 HG20
B&H - $540 HV30

Baring the out of stock and other inconveniences. Still not buying firewire card and tapes, so cheaper for the HG20. And I've already beefed up the back end to handle either in terms of storage / processing capability. It might all come down to battery life I guess. Need at least two hours, four would be best. Probably on an after market battery which is expected.

[Shadow_7]

Or I could get a panasonic SD9 for $359 off the shelf at best buy. Or 2 for $700. Aside from that 3CCD thing, and that annoying panning too fast pop-up. The smear effect is kind of neat, lucky charms neat, it's a rainbow of colors.

[dcloud]

if you're not earning money off your cam might as well wait for lumix g

[Shadow_7]

I'm not currently planning on making a living with video gadgets (red/green color blind and all). It's mainly to supplement my audio hobby. Partly motivated by other so called professionals that yield results lower than imaginable. No one in my genre currently offers HD content (nor have plans to do so in the next decade or more). So if I can give them a taste, perhaps they'll change their tune and get serious for a change.

If I can give them semi-pro results for less than the cost of one USED tuba. Then how can they justify not booking passage on the band wagon. Given that the average performance ensemble is sporting 6 or more less used tubas in competition. Complete with DVDs with the cheapest option being $30 for ONE group. And recent years yielding competitions in excess of 20 groups. It's just lame, and I want a quality mirror to hold up in front of them to show them just how lame they're being. Especially after ernesto where 40% of the groups didn't get any recording. And those that did, might as well have stayed home. In some respects the SD home video trumps the pro package, if only because they bothered to wipe the lens at least once during the 12 minute show.

I want to have the right gear, and I want to be weather proof. IF I can just do that much, I CAN'T be any worse than my competitors. Or at least have to actively try really really really hard to do so.

[fishops]

The HV30 would require a PCIe x1 firewire card (only open slot left), so $60+, and $6 an hour (tape) to operate. Plus head cleaning tape, and I still wouldn't have shot any footage at that point.

What to the what now?

First of all, you don't have any PCI slots open? A PCI firewire card is ten bucks from newegg or your local mom and pop. Even if you don't, a PCIe card is only $25

Second of all where on earth are you buying miniDV tapes for 6 bucks a piece? A six pack of Panasonics is 15 bucks right here

[steve]

If you want the cam to be weather proof B&H has a tent you can put on the cam or you spend $300 to $800 to get a water enclosure.

I just came back from the Adacama Desert in Chile and my HV30 performed without a glitch. Were talking much heat and raped temp changes from 40deg to 100 in a matter of two hours.

I'm not currently planning on making a living with video gadgets (red/green color blind and all). It's mainly to supplement my audio hobby. Partly motivated by other so called professionals that yield results lower than imaginable. No one in my genre currently offers HD content (nor have plans to do so in the next decade or more). So if I can give them a taste, perhaps they'll change their tune and get serious for a change.

If I can give them semi-pro results for less than the cost of one USED tuba. Then how can they justify not booking passage on the band wagon. Given that the average performance ensemble is sporting 6 or more less used tubas in competition. Complete with DVDs with the cheapest option being $30 for ONE group. And recent years yielding competitions in excess of 20 groups. It's just lame, and I want a quality mirror to hold up in front of them to show them just how lame they're being. Especially after ernesto where 40% of the groups didn't get any recording. And those that did, might as well have stayed home. In some respects the SD home video trumps the pro package, if only because they bothered to wipe the lens at least once during the 12 minute show.

I want to have the right gear, and I want to be weather proof. IF I can just do that much, I CAN'T be any worse than my competitors. Or at least have to actively try really really really hard to do so.

[Shadow_7]

What to the what now?

First of all, you don't have any PCI slots open? A PCI firewire card is ten bucks from newegg or your local mom and pop. Even if you don't, a PCIe card is only $25

Second of all where on earth are you buying miniDV tapes for 6 bucks a piece? A six pack of Panasonics is 15 bucks right here

Well my current system has 2 PCI slots, 1 pcie x1 slot, 1 pcie x16 slot. WalMart special from 2007. PCI slots are currently used by M-Audio Delta 44 soundcard, LinkSys Wireless Card (or Leadtek TV Capture Card), PCIe x16 is used by VisionTek HD 4550 video card, PCIe x1 is unused for now.

Off the shelf at say Best Buy, was just there yesterday, didn't have ANY firewire cards, for ANY slots. And even at $25 online, it puts the HV30 higher in price than the HG20, online. Most of the DV tapes I spy off the shelf run $15+ for individual tapes, and sometimes two packs, off the shelf. Not that SDHC cards are cheap, but I can reuse them 10,000 times (according to specs), as opposed to 50 or less times for tapes. And 500GB HDDs are $99 off the shelf at best buy. I now have three of those to go with my docking bay in preparation for video editing.

[fishops]

Ok. Well, if you can't or won't comparison shop for whatever reason and can't afford getting ripped off on tapes then go with the HG20 I guess. Looking at your list in the first post however, the HV30 is clearly a better fit for you.

[Shadow_7]

If the HG20 had zebra it would be in my inventory. The HV30 is a better fit for most of the features. But it requires extras which I don't currently have in inventory. Thus increasing the initial cost of ownership. And that little bit of extra resolution 1920 vs. 1440 is leaving me a bit gun shy on the HV30. If you consider SD to be 640x480, then it's a TV and a half shy of full resolution. Granted that you can do full HD by capturing the HDMI out. I'm also a bit hesitant that the next generation might be the smaller mm adapter, so any extras (lenses, filters, hoods, ...) would not work with the next generation. I guess I'll wait, but actually having the cash for it, makes waiting harder to do.

[fishops]

And that little bit of extra resolution 1920 vs. 1440 is leaving me a bit gun shy on the HV30. If you consider SD to be 640x480, then it's a TV and a half shy of full resolution.

There's this tendency with first time buyers to get confused by pixel numbers. Resolution is not equal to number of pixels. The more important number is how many lines can the camera resolve. The HV and HG are about equal on that front, the HV having the slight upper hand at around 820 vs 800 something for the HG.

But really the question is, how are you delivering your content? Wide release? Art house theater? Cable HDTV? Youtube? Mom's basement? What do those extra pixels mean for you when you go to deliver?

Number of pixels is much less about image quality and much more about delivery format. Those little Aiptek cameras deliver 1080P footage, does that mean they're better than my DVX100B? Pixel resolution doesn't take into account compression, optics, gain circuit, sensor quality or really anything that makes up a compelling image. Not to mention having something worth looking at in front of the camera.

I'm also a bit hesitant that the next generation might be the smaller mm adapter, so any extras (lenses, filters, hoods, ...) would not work with the next generation.

They make these wonderful things called step up rings. You will need them anyway if you want a 3rd party wide angle adapter for any of the cameras we're discussing.

[berighteous]

and there's that little issue that you can't really edit avchd footage unless you have a quad core computer with a ton of memory and expensive software and even then performance is like crap...

Get a HV20 and take the savings over the HV30 and buy a firewire card and tape. I have two of them and they are amazing, and you can edit the video in any video editor.

[Shadow_7]

I've already worked out the AVCHD editing / conversion at the most basic level. So that's not gonna be an issue. Sure it takes 4x's longer than the footage to convert, and requires a temp file 30x+'s in size. But it's doable.

For the moment, realistically I'm looking at a DVD deliverable. But it would be nice to take 1920x1080 screen captures and not have a lot of blur / artifacts in that image. As the camcorder will also replace my 7.2mp cybershot (which isn't all that great to start with). In that regard the Samsung HMX20C is attractive in that it's 30p, takes large stills, and not a lot of cash either. But it does seem to lack some of the contrast / detail I've seen in the HV/HG line of cams.

If the scarlet was a real cam, available today, and 50% the price of what's it's current incarnation implies. It would be what I'd get. In some respects this cam will be a step up cam to that cam. So I'm not wanting to spend a lot on non-recyclables (tapes, step up rings, filters, ....). Although realistically It'll probably be a couple of years after it's release (if that ever happens) before I can afford that camcorder. Or I may find that video isn't for me, and find something else to focus my energies on.

[net]

and there's that little issue that you can't really edit avchd footage unless you have a quad core computer with a ton of memory and expensive software and even then performance is like crap...

Get a HV20 and take the savings over the HV30 and buy a firewire card and tape. I have two of them and they are amazing, and you can edit the video in any video editor.

well... a "ton of memory" can only be taken to a point. I have 32-bit Vista, 256mb video with 3gigs RAM; which is pretty much the max for 32-bit OS. I have an AMD Phenom 9500 2.2ghz quad processor; it's selling now for around $100.

http://www.nextag.com/AMD-Phenom-950...19/prices-html

It's the low end for quads, but it works good enough with AVCHD, even 24mbps. Sometimes preview is less fluid, depending on the clip in the preview in Sony Vegas - but it's only in preview and doesn't effect the editing process or final render.

I purchased Sony Vegas Pro 8 cd-only from B&H for only $129. So, this was not "super expensive" considering what I got. With the new 8c Vegas update, AVCHD is really flawless to work with.

Here's the HV20.com/B&H link for the cd:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...o_8_Video.html


So, what you're saying was probably true last year; now it's really caught up. I would recommend downloading some files and checking it out for yourself as there's probably going to be some neat AVCHD cams being announced soon from Canon.

[Shadow_7]

I guess I should add, it's not so much that firewire would break the bank. But....... If I get firewire for the desktop(PCIe), then I need it for the laptop(Express/54). Then I need it for the other desktops that are on standby for backups. Then I ............... Well, maybe it would break the bank.

I've been downloading various clips (hf100, hg20, hv20, hf10, hg10, and others). And to be honest, I could probably be happy with any of them. But since I'm new to video, having zebra would help me get a feel for the camcorder quicker. Not having it makes the learning curve that much longer of a process. Although once familiar with best settings for conditions, then I don't suppose I need it that much.

Resultant wise, I would be hard pressed to deliver anything more than 720p / 480p at this point. At least until I find the magic modeline for 1080p on my HDTV. So far 1776x1000 is the best resolution I can do on screen, without overscan. At the moment my results would probably be more of a historic archive and a courtesy to the performing groups. Most likely I'll just give then a data dvd with the original, 720 / vimeo variant, 480p / dvd variant, 240p youtube uploadable variant. Depending on what fits on said DVD, what feedback I get, and other conditions. The DVD resultant would take priority as it probably has the greatest support level on the client end. Approximately a 15 minute short for each group.

[Shadow_7]

Perhaps just a Mino HD to tide me over then. It has most of what I need, except zoom, storage capacity, and battery life. The kodak could overcome some of those, but it's footage looks a bit over exposed, even in relatively low light conditions. I'll need a run and gun action cam anyway. And the Mino HD might be a perfect match for a hat cam. Perhaps a kite cam once it's on it's last leg. Wrap it in plastic wrap and shoot the fishies in the pond. I wonder if they make them in a titanium water-proof shell?

[net]

Perhaps just a Mino HD to tide me over then. It has most of what I need, except zoom, storage capacity, and battery life. The kodak could overcome some of those, but it's footage looks a bit over exposed, even in relatively low light conditions. I'll need a run and gun action cam anyway. And the Mino HD might be a perfect match for a hat cam. Perhaps a kite cam once it's on it's last leg. Wrap it in plastic wrap and shoot the fishies in the pond. I wonder if they make them in a titanium water-proof shell?

Not being able to expand flash memory cards/internal memory only with the MinoHD would kill it for me. Maybe this doesn't bother you.

I saw a Kodak Z1085 Digital Camera advertised at Office Max for only $99.99 + free shipping.

http://www.edealinfo.com/show_hot_de...03&dealseq=043


It does HDV (1280 × 720) at 30 fps and takes memory cards.
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...q-locale=en_US


If they still have them online or at an OM store near you, seems like a good deal for 100 bucks.

[fishops]

You are way overthinking this. The HV30 fits the most out of all your criteria. You don't need to put firewire cards on every computer you own, just the one you want to capture with. I take 1920x1440 screengrabs from my HV20 all the time, they look perfectly fine. The codec is easier to work with and the image is sharper than its AVC counterpart. The HG20 is a great camera too, you'll probably be happy with either one.

You won't be happy with one of those little fixed focus things like the Flip however. They are the video equivalent of those disposable cameras you get from the convenience store. Barely adequate for youtube.

[Shadow_7]

I'm not expecting too much from the flip. But it's 1280x720 @ 30fps should trump my 640x480 @ 25fps cybershot. At the moment it's likely to be used for a performers perspective cam while mounted to a hat or instrument. Via tape, rubber bands, coat hangers, or whatever works. I doubt they'll want to perform with an HV30 strapped to their leg or something while marching around a football field carrying a 40lbs Tuba. Plus my cybershot kind of sucks, good for a 100px x 100px avatar, or maybe a 300px x 300px craigslist ad (in favorable lighting, with tripod), but that's about it. The flip will probably suck too, but it should trump the cybershot. Or at least yield better results than a $50 webcam. Or at least be logistically simpler. And I get to keep the aspect ratio of the other 1080(p/i) footage.

HV30 is good. And I do tend to over think things a lot. It just complicates things logistically beyond usability for me. I'm really needing the better motion handling of 60i and beyond. Spinning flags, flying drumsticks, and lots of other motion that doesn't favor typical camcorders / recording codecs. In terms of Scarlet, it's not so much that I need a $4K camcorder. It's that there's no other choice to best handle the mission requirements. digital + motion + quality, if I could get that for $50, I'd be done thinking and out using. Although if I had $10K in the bank, I'd probably be out there as well.

[Shadow_7]

I saw a Kodak Z1085 Digital Camera advertised at Office Max for only $99.99 + free shipping.

Nice little camera. I guess I know what to replace mom's cybershot with. Since I've been experimenting with a kite cam with the cybershot. A little worse for wear from the effort, but still works (if I assist the lens when it motors out).

[Shadow_7]

I saw a Kodak Z1085 Digital Camera advertised at Office Max for only $99.99 + free shipping.

I picked up one of these Z1085-IS cams. Kind of grainy, but it should make a decent DVD image. Better than the cybershot. Image stabilization seems good, which seems lacking on my cybershot. Zoom goes in stages and isn't much zoom (x5). At least it's usable, unlike the cybershot which is all digital (and horrid x3) zoom. Well worth the $130 I paid for the Kodak.

It seemed to indicate 30 minutes record time (HD video). I'm not sure if that's SDHC capacity (16GB, probably not) or battery life. Factory charge (if there is one). Takes 3V DC power plug (not included), has TV docking station option (not included), requires SDHC card to record video (not included). Connects via USB with a PTP protocol. So gphoto2 in linux to download the media, which works. Not bad if you don't intend to use the media in it's grainy original format. My craigslist ads should look much better now (image stabilization / larger source image to scale to tastes). Comes with little more than the camera, some sort of plastic plate to set it on, a wrist strap, a usb cable, and the books/CDs. CCD sensor so smear with light sources. But the cybershot is a CCD too.

Looks like .MOV container. 1280x720 @ 30fps (progressive). 1 channel of s16le 48kHz audio. From what I've seen of the Mino HD vimeo footage, it's better in terms of detail / grain in the video. I may still get one, eventually. Hopefully the sun comes out today so I can see how it does in optimum lighting. First footage 102.8 seconds for a 173MB file. So lets say 2MB per second. 120MB per minute. 7.2GB per hour, must be battery status. Or some recording length limit. 4.3GB file size limit?

[net]

I picked up one of these Z1085-IS cams...

It seemed to indicate 30 minutes record time (HD video).

Cool, so you got it at Office Max for $100?

The Kodak website says it does 29 minutes continuous HD video recording.

Video specifications
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...e=en_US#wg03_1