60i to 24p workflow for Mac/Final Cut Pro

[David]

JES Deinterlacer
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html#DEI

This is a free tool which will not only remove the pulldown, but has a setting to automatically detect the cadence. This is good news since the frustrating problem with the HV20's cadence is that it's different for every shot you get. Auto-detection means that you don't have to go through every clip, one by one, to figure out which frames are AA and which are BC etc


This will work with your already captured files using either AIC or Final Cut Pro's HDV Firewire Basic setting.

• Go to "input" and select the footage you'd like to convert.
  
• Put checks in the boxes for: "Top field first" and "video range"
  
• In the "Project" tab select "Inverse Telecine" from the drop down menu. Then check "Detect Cadence Breaks" and "Output frame rate 23.976"
  
• In the "Output" tab, check "Progressive" and do a "Direct" output with "Photo-JPEG" as the compressor.

I don't claim to be an expert with this application and there are all kinds of other things it can do as well. It would be great if people could do their own tests with this and tell us all what seems to work best or if there's anything confusing or problematic with the above workflow


Thanks to the JES author for the program and Hal Snook for being the first one to bring it to my attention.

[neocastillo]

Just out of curiosity why use the "Photo-JPEG" setting on the final output? Wouldn't HDV or AIC be a better choice? Could you please explain why you chose "Photo-JPEG"?

[Hal Snook]

Just out of curiosity why use the "Photo-JPEG" setting on the final output? Wouldn't HDV or AIC be a better choice? Could you please explain why you chose "Photo-JPEG"?

Photo-JPEG is about on par with AIC. They're both intraframe codecs. The latest version of JES Deinterlacer does both Photo-JPEG and AIC, so you can take your pick.

HDV is an interframe codec, not ideal for editing, and recompressing to HDV will result in a visible loss in quality (each time you make a change to HDV, such as changing frame rates, or just plain editing, it has to be recompressed).

[potholeskinny]

Gee.. I thought this thread was about "60i to 24p workflow for Mac/Final Cut Pro" ???

[Mal]

Gee.. I thought this thread was about "60i to 24p workflow for Mac/Final Cut Pro" ???

Your post is in regard to many comments made in this thread being about the Mac vs. PC issue.
That debate can [and probably should] continue, but it might be best if it's contained within its own walls,
so I took the liberty now to move all Mac vs. PC posts to their own thread, right here:
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=274

Hope that is acceptable to all.

[Brett A. Noe]

Very nice, David. Far easier than the Cinema Tools method!

[neocastillo]

Yes this method works perfectly for me as well.

[rsovitzky]

So where might this (JES) fit in with iMovie? If I shoot a clip in 24P on the HV20, and want to edit with iMovie, should I use JES first? That is, after Importing with iMovie? If so, do I still use the Photo-Jpeg output? Would I eventually (after edit) export from iMovie into something else - like QT?

I'm new at this so don't laugh.

Rick

[neocastillo]

I don't think that JES is an answer for iMovie users. iMovie does not support 24p footage. If iMovie is all you have you should record your footage in 1080i @60fps, this is the HD format iMovie is capable of.

[rsovitzky]

neocastillo,

Please elaborate. I thought the bugaboo with P24 and iMovie was the pull down stuff and cadence (I don't have a good grasp on those concepts yet). So I thought letting JES 'get rid of that' would remove the obstacles for iMovie. What am i still missing?

Rick

[mastroiani]

Hi, what would be the best method aputring footage with this workflow? I captuered footage via HDV 1080P24 setting and it seems to work fine. Is there a method that would retain better quality. Since JES Deinterlacer can output AIC or Photo JPEG files does it really matter if I first capture the footage via HDV 1080P24 or AIC or any other similar codec?

Thanks a lot,

M

[mastroiani]

I don't think it matters whether you have JPEG or HDV codec when workin in Fincal Cut. Whether rendering or simply cutting the footage Final Cut doesn't touch the original files. Only when you output the original files then FCP renders them, so the process happens only once. So, the discussion about the codecs specifically for editing work flow doesn't really matter.

[directore]

well this is nice and all except that this utility doesn't work with stream files *.m2t Had to convert it first to something else.

[malacca73]

That'll give you something other than an .m2t file to work with. Many export options that will work with JES Deinterlacer.

Seems like a pretty straightforward workflow for Macs is:

1. Capture footage using Apple's DVHSCap utility into a .m2t stream
2. Convert .m2t stream into something else (AIC, Photo JPEG, whatever)
3. Use JES Deinterlacer to change frame rate, etc. as described above.

I don't have an HV20 yet, but I am pining for one. I found a .m2t stream that someone posted online from his HV20 that I was able to mess around with.

[mastroiani]

As far as I know, if you already have Final Cut Studio 2 it will batch convert it via Compressor (I think) and you don't have to worry about the third party software.

[tkmslee]

I tried the JES thing and it seemed to have worked for me:

http://www.leetj.com/videos/downtown.mov

It's jerky if you play it in the browser so download it first. Someone told me that it still looks like 30p and not 24p. I followed the instructions though...what do you think?

[malacca73]

I tried the JES thing and it seemed to have worked for me:

http://www.leetj.com/videos/downtown.mov

It's jerky if you play it in the browser so download it first. Someone told me that it still looks like 30p and not 24p. I followed the instructions though...what do you think?

Did you forget to change the framerate in JES Deinterlacer? QT Player says it's 29.97 fps. My MacBook claims to be playing it at the correct framerate, but it looks a bit jerky. Viewing it in VLC was a bit better, but it's still not terribly smooth. Not sure if this is because my MacBook can't handle it or not.

[malacca73]

As far as I know, if you already have Final Cut Studio 2 it will batch convert it via Compressor (I think) and you don't have to worry about the third party software.

I'm going to be blowing all my money on the HV20, so no cash left for Final Cut Studio. Do you think Apple will do us all a favor and have iMovie (or at least Final Cut Express) handle 24p stuff in its next iteration? Please....

[jimbaran]

I'm going to be blowing all my money on the HV20, so no cash left for Final Cut Studio. Do you think Apple will do us all a favor and have iMovie (or at least Final Cut Express) handle 24p stuff in its next iteration? Please....

I have Final Cut Express as well. Can it be done with FCE?.... Please help.

Anyone can post 24p workflow with FCE?.... help? I am brand new with this.

Thank you.

[Jon Thomas]

This solution sounds great--just want to make sure as it's been referred to as a deinterlacer... it doesn't deinterlace at the cost of resolution does it? It just gets rid of Canon's lame pull down right? Thanks, JT

[Jon Thomas]

[*]In the "Project" tab select "Inverse Telecine" from the drop down menu. Then check "Detect Cadence Breaks" and "Output frame rate 23.976"
[*]In the "Output" tab, check "Progressive" and do a "Direct" output with "Photo-JPEG" as the compressor.[/LIST]

It won't let me pick Inverse Telecine--that option is greyed out--help! What am I doing wrong? Should I not be selecting a Quicktime version of it?

[rur]

I am really confused now!! Should or should I not buy this HV20? I am specifically looking for 24P with this camera. So can someone help me here. First of all I do need FCP not FCE like I already have? Should you do the 23.976 pulldown after the whole movie is edited completely? Is this true for titles/etc? Do titles/credits fall into the pulldown area too, and do they have to be converted to 24P too? And once this JES Deinterlacer is added will FCP recognize it automatically once you start to do the pulldown??
Please help, I am a 24P and FCP beginner looking to make a documentary this summer.

[DangerZone]

You don't need Final Cut Pro to use this program. You just need a program that will capture the video into an MOV format. It's a standalone program that will automatically detect the cadence of the 60i stream and convert it to 24P (in geek speak: change the captured 29.97 quicktime movie to 23.976 photo jpeg). For all of you worried about quality loss, don't worry. It looks FANTASTIC!

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE FIND, DAVE! THIS PROGRAM ROCKS!!!

[Simon Hughes]

Not to be too obtuse, but could someone PLEASE outline a simple yet complete workflow for 24p from the HV20 using JES and FCE? I've seen so many threads that imply that it can be done but none that address this combination of software.

For example:

1) Shoot at 24p in HV20
2) Capture at what in FCE?
3) Edit project in FCE
4) Export to .mov file
5) Process in JES using what parameters?
6) Burn in iDVD using what parameters?
7) Any other steps necessary

I'm sorry if this sounds elementary, but I know that I'm not alone in being new to video, new to the HV20 and new to FCE. Please help us newbies with a verified workflow that we can use.

Cheers,

Simon

[DangerZone]

I did this with Final Cut Pro and not Final Cut Express. That being said, this is what I did:

1. Setup your Audio/Video Settings.
2. Sequence Preset: HDV- 1080i60
3. Capture Preset: HDV
4. Device Control: HDV Firewire Basic
5. Video playback: Off
6. Audio playback: Built-in Audio
7. Plug in your HV-20 via firewire
8. Click on Log and Capture
9. The HV20 has a super cool feature that automatically detects scenes(where you started and stopped the tape) and automatically creates new files based on that. So, name your files such as: Outdoor Concert - Camera One - Scene and hit Capture Now so Final Cut will automatically change the Scene numbers 1,2,3 etc.
10. After your footage has been captured, open JES Deinterlacer. MAKE SURE YOU DOWNLOADED THE CORRECT VERSION BASED ON YOUR OS VERSION! I have 10.4, so I downloaded the most current version.

Side note: The footage you captured from the HV20 is 29.97 frames per second (fps). Don't panic. That's how the camera does it. However, we need a program that will change the 29.97 fps to 24P (23.976fps in techno speak). Professional cameras add "flags" to the tape that tell the editing program what "flagged" frames to delete in order to correctly get 23.976fps. Unfortunately, the HV20 doesn't' do that and makes life miserable in order to get 23.976fps. In order to get 23.976fps, we either need to go MANUALLY through 29.97 frames a second and delete the duplicate frames or get a program that will automatically detect which frames are duplicates and delete them. JES Deinterlacer does this... for free!

11. Now that JES Deinterlacer is open, do the steps done in the very first post.
12. You're changing the HDV MOV to a Photo-JPEG file. Don't worry about quality loss. It looks amazing. I compared the Photo-JPEG to the Apple Intermediate codec and didn't see much of a difference, and the JPEG was a smaller file size! Same data rate and everything!
13. I don't recommend exporting the file to something else. Keep it as Photo-JPEG.

Now, you converted all of your files and they look cool and should now be 23.976 fps, data rate around 20mbps, and Photo-JPEG MOV files. You can either keep or delete the 29.97 mov files, but they're pretty much useless now. You got what you wanted out of them. Now, onto FCE! Please note that I did this in Final Cut Pro and NOT Express:

14. Create a new sequence.
15. Change the sequence settings to:
16. Frame Size: 1440x1080 HD 16x9
17. Pixel Aspect Ratio: HD 1440x1080
18. Field Dominance: None
19. Compressor: Photo-JPEG Quality 100%
20. Audio: 48kHz 16bit, default config

You're now ready to edit! If you have troubles, make sure you have all of the updates downloaded for FCE, all your codecs are updated, and you have enough hard drive space. Good luck!