I'm changing my argument to, anything under 3 or 4k that is AVCHD sucks. Now everything tape based is the same high quality no matter what price.
I'd say the MPEG-2 35mb/s found on the EX1 and EX3 is the best quality. WAY better than AVCHD.
EX1 is my dream for now.
Correct that, the announced Scarlet is my dream. but a more than likely unreachable one.
AVCHD sucks period. The Scarlet, yes very nice but the whole "Lego" idea blew it for me. So yeah, the EX1 is a great choice. Just the cost is too high for most people. But, in that case I'll take a nice HV30 over an HMC150.
-Kyle
The EX1/EX3 are AVCHD if I am not mistaken.Originally Posted by spideralex90
Anyways, I disagree that anything that uses AVCHD is "bad" and "consumer". AVCHD, at 24mbps or more, with a GOOD encoder, is way superior to HDV and good enough for prosumer and high-end consumer usage. But as I've written before in this forum -- and I hate repeating myself -- h.264 is a VERY variable codec depending on the implementation of the codec. Even if the sensor was the same on several camera models from different manufacturers, and the bitrate was the same, the resulting quality would be very different because the codec implementation would be drastically different. So don't shoot h.264 down. We haven't see the best of h.264 encoding just yet. It can only get better, not worse.
No, I believe it's just a higher bit rate MPEG (@35 Mbps). Basically HDV on roids (but not HDV).
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
You would be mistaken there. It's under the XDCAM HD codec that sony makes.
That makes no sense.. why would you differentiate a prosumer camera with a "little consumer" camera? There's no difference between those cameras other than the fact that the manufactures usually put less manual controls on them.. Slap the HV30 sensor into a larger body with XLR audio and price it below the XHA1 and I'm sure many people will buy it. Your reasoning is weak at best.
I'd say descent manual control and focus/iris/zoom rings are enough to differentiate pro-sumer and consumer cameras. Also the 1-8 thousand dollar difference, depending on the camera.That makes no sense.. why would you differentiate a prosumer camera with a "little consumer" camera? There's no difference between those cameras other than the fact that the manufactures usually put less manual controls on them.. Slap the HV30 sensor into a larger body with XLR audio and price it below the XHA1 and I'm sure many people will buy it. Your reasoning is weak at best.
Exactly.. codec used for a specific camera has no relevance when we're talking about consumer and prosumer.. They're equally low-end for the most part.
Yes they use the same AVCHD codec, but on smaller cameras the codec is crappier because the mb/s is generally lower. Also manual control is the biggest thing that makes these cameras different, which is no small difference.
Correct. High-bitrate MPEG-2. Can do also 25Mbit/s HDV-like video.No, I believe it's just a higher bit rate MPEG (@35 Mbps). Basically HDV on roids (but not HDV).
kyle, i dont know where your from but here, nobody tolerates assholes. No need to call people names. If you think avchd sucks then so be it.
Nobody is forcing you, then dont force others. Go live in your own little world.
plus, back your sh*t up. boogerg posts facts and your rebuttals are "stupid" "sucks" "sh*ty" "dumbass"
sorry but your being a real snotty little KID.
anyway,
Ive tried the footages from hmc150, and theyre great. I can key out a green screen in few clicks. HDV/DV on the other hand, i have to deal with artifacts. (It was said that a low bitrate avchd is similar to a high quality mpeg2)
ex1 footages are great. theyre prices are great too :P maybe the recently discovered cheap express card makes it a better alternative...
Umm...I believe Duke is correct. The AVCHD that we have come to know was originally developed for "consumer" cams. I believe Canon and Panasonic (maybe Sony also) were all part of a consortium that specified this. I believe what was meant for the Higher end cams was something called AVC Intra (or something like that). Anyways...Duke was correct.That makes no sense.. why would you differentiate a prosumer camera with a "little consumer" camera? There's no difference between those cameras other than the fact that the manufactures usually put less manual controls on them.. Slap the HV30 sensor into a larger body with XLR audio and price it below the XHA1 and I'm sure many people will buy it. Your reasoning is weak at best.
Edit: At least I remember reading about this a couple of years ago. Which is why I'm suprised at cams like the Panasonic HMC150 only shooting AVCHD between 21 and 24 MBps. I think beyond 24 MBps you can call it AVC Inttra...which would be more of a "pro" codec (where you can't call it AVCHD anymore). No different from the example above with the EX-1 and it's 35 Mbps MPEG-2...because it's above 25 Mbps you can not call it HDV anymore.
Last edited by Ian-T; 2008 November 15th at 10:43.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
I'm not differentiating, that's just the way the standard was set up. I think AVCHD has lots of potential at higher bit rates as it matures.That makes no sense.. why would you differentiate a prosumer camera with a "little consumer" camera? There's no difference between those cameras other than the fact that the manufactures usually put less manual controls on them.. Slap the HV30 sensor into a larger body with XLR audio and price it below the XHA1 and I'm sure many people will buy it. Your reasoning is weak at best.
I suspect it was formulated to allow slower solid-state and HDD recording and for that they needed an agreement for consumer editing. When they realized that there was a demand/niche market some manufacturers issued their own proprietary flavor.
Here's a link to a chart on formats. I was wront on the EX1 it's Mpeg2.
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/im...igure1-600.jpg
You can see there that AVCHD only goes to 24 mbps, after that it is AVC Intra as Ian said.
Last edited by Duke; 2008 November 15th at 13:39.
I would need some evidence to believe this.
Meh, believe what you want. There are no ''facts" proven on this topic. This forums gone downhill, too many new people *sigh*.
-Kyle
Maybe we should host interviews for each new member.
Your opinion is wrong, and there are thousands of "facts" to prove it. Here are a few. Here's a comparison with screenshots between MPEG2, MPEG4 rev.2 and MPEG4 rev.10 (aka h.264 which is what the HMC150 uses). At the same datarate. MPEG4 is the clear winner, even with the older codec revision.
http://www.balooga.com/mpeg4.php3
Here's the Wikipedia page on the h.264 codec: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264
I'll quote it for you: "These techniques, along with several others, help H.264 to perform significantly better than any prior standard under a wide variety of circumstances in a wide variety of application environments. H.264 can often perform radically better than MPEG-2 video—typically obtaining the same quality at half of the bit rate or less, especially on high bit rate and high resolution situations.[2]"
Aside from image quality, AVCHD supports 1080 / 24p natively with no pulldown, 720 / 60, 50 and 24p modes with no pulldown, 1920×1080 square pixel frames, 5.1 channel AC3 audio, and 7.1 channel PCM audio. None of which is possible with HDV.
You can rage against AVCHD all you want, but everything you are claiming is factually wrong. The HMC150's PH mode is capable of creating a vastly technologically superior image and audio stream than anything possible with HDV.
Claims that AVCHD is not that better than HDV may have some truth in them because AVC is much more computing-intensive algorithm, so to make it realtime with current hardware and keep power consumption at reasonable level some sacrifices surely were made. Meaning, that AVCHD in its current form (and especially the first versions, released two years ago) do not use all possible optimizations. But this is a start. AVCHD is already reasonably good and compares favorably to HDV even at lower bitrate like 17Mbps. Future versions will be even better. Current models will form the basis for AVCHD production, when newer models will be released the infrastructure will have been already created for them.
Oh, by the way, HDV supports 1080p24, 1080p25 and 1080p30 without pulldown, all native progressive. Examples are Canon's "F" modes (the fact that sensors are interlaced does not matter) and Sony's Z5, Z7 and S270. New Sony's VCRs can read native progressive tapes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#HDV_1080p After all, HDV 1080 is used by Sony and Canon only, and they can make whatever changes to this um... "standard" as they want.
I agree with you that there are downsides to AVCHD, especially when it comes to editing workflow on today's computers. My post was to some extent a reaction to Kylejack's ignorant opinion and his attempt to browbeat people in this thread who actually know what they're talking about.
I didn't realize that, I thought they encoded in a 60i stream like the HVxx. The more you know! (doo doo doo doooooo)Oh, by the way, HDV supports 1080p24, 1080p25 and 1080p30 without pulldown, all native progressive. Examples are Canon's "F" modes (the fact that sensors are interlaced does not matter) and Sony's Z5, Z7 and S270. New Sony's VCRs can read native progressive tapes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#HDV_1080p After all, HDV 1080 is used by Sony and Canon only, and they can make whatever changes to this um... "standard" as they want.
Yeah you need to get out and film more. Does it help to know about a camera to every small detail? No!
Unnecessarily vicious attack deleted, it is inappropriate for these forums-Koolpenguin89
-Kyle
Last edited by koolpenguin89; 2008 November 15th at 18:54.
u guys need 2 cut it out
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
We're getting REPORTED POSTS warnings from this thread.
I'm too tired to figure it out.
The ones who are guilty of misbehavinisation: PLEASE STOP.
Cheers.
MAL
Dang, maybe i shouldn't have started this thread. lol. I'd still have to take kyle's side in that i don't think AVCHD is good. that is my opinion, take it or leave it. Anyhow, if you find some stunning footage, that is better than HDV please feel free to post, i'm not against AVCHD, i just don't feel it is far enough along to sit on level with other mediums.
And again, i think the 35 mb/s of the EX1 and EX3 is the best quality footage on a prosumer cam.
And again, that is My opinion.
Thank you.
I haven't got a clue what anything in this thread means. Does anybody have a Tylenol?
Aquarius
If anyone has an HMC150 anytime soon lets test it similarly to these test shots (posts 213-215):
http://hv20.com/showthread.php?p=151544#post151496
And then compare it to the Scarlet. If you are in the LA, OC area we can test in in the same room, same objects, and I measured all the distances.
Duke
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