Is the Canon XH A1 still worth the money vs. owning an HV30?

[supergain]

I have an HV30 and have shot quite a bit of footage with it that I am happy with. I’d like to, however, move up to a more professional camera. I’ve considered the EX1, and have the resources to get one, but it is difficult to justify spending that much on a camera that will very soon be surpassed by something else. Also, the color of a lot of the EX1 footage I’ve seen online does not impress me. I like the true-to-life look of the Canons more.

So, I’m considering the A1 as an addition to my HV30. What’s holding me back is that the online video comparisons of the HV30 and A30 look almost indistinguishable. In fact, the HV30 nearly always looks sharper, albeit with a slightly reduced dynamic range. Also, it appears that the A1 lens might have more barrel distortion at the wide-angle end. I’ve also heard about limitations with the focus/aperture rings and some strangeness about what you can do with the XLR inputs.

So what does the extra $2500 buy me? Low-light capability, manual controls, and “soft” 24F and 30F modes?

I’m not really interested in the Scarlet. The lens specs did not impress me. And, Panasonic’s new camera is just an updated HVX200a – same sensor block somewhere between SD and HD resolution.

It would be nice to have a CCD camera, so I wouldn’t have to worry about strobing lights when shooting in clubs, etc. or just in general, although I’ve hardly had any problem at all with the rolling shutter of my HV30.

What do you guys that own both the HV20/30 and A1 think?

[Lunchbox]

Well, I can tell you that for outdoor shots, they are very similiar. I use them both all the time in wedding events. Xh-a1's footage is always sharper than Hv30.

XH-A1 default color is quite plain. But with the power of loading presets, it powers up XH-A1 good. I am in love with the VIVIDRGB preset. No matter how I tweak, I can never get HV30's footage close to the output of VIVIDRGB.

It depends on what you are looking to do. XH-A1 is very professional with all the convenient controls on the camera body. However, it ain't quite portable. HV30 is more of a everyday cam.

[Duke]

There was some very interesting footage linked to one of the threads where someone had shot many test clips of the exact same place and did a sort of diagonal swipe so you can compare the shots.

IMHO, and some other who viewed it, some of the shots the XH-A1 (a very fine camera) looked better and in others the HV20 looked better.

Since there are some differences in the camera that makes sense. (CMOS vs. CCD, 2.1 megapixels vs. 1.5, one sensor vs. 3 sensors with the green one offset.) With the presets you can pretty much match up the HV20 and A1 clips without really noticing. Taky/Lunchbox is the master here on that one.

The A1 really is a great camera and only lacks HDMI or HD-SI out. However you can get a G1 (not worth it in my opinion) or use component out for your HD monitor.

No current camera has everything.
Duke

[Sean Michael]

I am in the same boat. I think I will either wait for the XHA1 successor (it's time for Canon to update the camera) or get a Sony Z5U or Z7U. The Sonys are interesting HDV cams...they offer great lowlight performance and simultaneous recording to Compact Flash & tape. I'm hoping Canon will announce something new soon...

[Kyleman]

I agree, the A1 is due for an update. It's still a solid camcorder, but other camcorders are catching up. I want to update soon but I'm waiting for other camcorders to come out. I don't want to buy a new camcorder and something new come out, that would be my luck.



-Kyle

[Jwymon]

I don't want to buy a new camcorder and something new come out, that would be my luck.

I bought my HV20 and 2 days later the HV30 came out. Luckily, the HV30 was almost a mere painting and repricing of the HV20.

[Sean Michael]

I recently spoke with a Canon dealer about the A1, and he agreed that it would be wise to wait and see what Canon does with an update. When the guy SELLING the camera says it's time for an update, it's time for an update.

[supergain]

Duke,

Yes, I saw that comparison footage. My take was that the HV footage was sharper, while the A1 footage had more lattitude. Some parts were deceptive, though, in that you didn't always know where the cameras were focused (i.e. there was one shot where I'm pretty sure the A1 was focused off the portion of the screen shown)

Sean,

I thought that Canon already announced their new camera lineup, and it was just more small improvements on their current lineup - like a better lens and one or two other additions. I'd be surprised if they release something totally new in the next 4-6 months. I do love Canons, and have never been let down by the quality of their products. Sony and Panasonic, on the other hand, have always been very hit or miss.

I've looked at the new Sony's you mentioned as well. Isn't one of the cheaper models missing XLR inputs? I just think that's a travesty in a prosumer camera.

[thequads]

watch peeps drop their a1's and hvx's for dirt once the scarlet comes out.. oh the second hand deals we will see.

[Sean Michael]

I've looked at the new Sony's you mentioned as well. Isn't one of the cheaper models missing XLR inputs? I just think that's a travesty in a prosumer camera.

Both the Z5 and Z7 have XLR inputs. The Z5 (which has been announced but hasn't yet reached the market) is the fixed lens version of the Z7. Both of these cameras excel in low-light conditions (rated at 1.5 lux versus the A1's rating of 7 lux).

It's the FX1000 that lacks XLR inputs. I agree with you that for $3k, one would expect XLR inputs. However the FX1000 will have the same lowlight capabilities as the Z5/Z7, and 24p. I work around the HV20's lack of XLR, so I suppose it's possible with the FX1000 too.

I would like to buy a Canon prosumer product (already have two HV20s), but it's hard to shell out top dollar for a long-in-the-tooth A1 when the competition has released cams with superior lowlight performance and dual tape/ solid state recording. Canon released a (minor) update to the XL series, but not the XH. I will wait a little longer to see what Canon has up its sleeve -- if anything.

[Duke]

I've looked at the new Sony's you mentioned as well. Isn't one of the cheaper models missing XLR inputs? I just think that's a travesty in a prosumer camera.

The FX1, FX7 and FX1000 are all missing the XLR input.

Come to think about it the Red One is missing regular XLR and has mini-XLR inputs, which totally shocked me. Something that big, heavy and pro and you need an adapter??

[ajc1]

I think most would agree that the A1 will deliver better quality images then the HV30. However, in the right hands, it would be a close race and I dont think the A1 even with more manual controls justify getting it over the HV30. If your looking for a more professional look then maybe the A1 is for you but if you can wait on your purchase, newer cameras will be coming out next year including the highly anticipated Red Scarlet.

[NathanTaylor]

that means a lot of expensive HD gear will be obtainable.

[V10TDI]

I agree with Taky that in an outdoor setting, and less than 10X zoom the XH-A1 and the HV30 are comparable.

In an indoor setting (i.e., lower lighting), the XHA1 will give you more options to achieve a better image.

The XH-A1 has more manual controls to help achieve better imaging in more situations, w/o requiring "tricks" or time-consuming hardware swaps. The XH-A1 has Better lenses (20x), ND filters (3 settings), gain control (3 variable settings), color controls (many settings), aperture (many settings), shutter (many settings), etc.

The HV30 is (hands down) more suitable for situations where portability is a concern. If you have the capacity to carry a tripod to your shoot, then you probably have the ability to tote the XH-A1. If you're in a situation where you can't lug the tripod, then you can't lug an XH-A1 and you'll want the HV30. The HV30 is easier to handle on a Steadicam (e.g., Merlin) than the XH-A1.

The HV30 has the capability to export "full" HD @ 1920x1080 progressive images via the HDMI interface (need capture card). The XH-A1 uses 3 interlaced CCD's and uses "Canon magic" to capture 1440x1080 progressive images to tape.

I love both the HV30 and the XH-A1. Each has strengths that round out a tool set.

[supergain]

Yes, I will probably pick up an XH-A1 after I get back from my latest business trip. I need the legitimacy of a prosumer model for some upcoming projects, and I've never seen anything come out of my HV30 that compares to the vividRGB profile folks are using with the A1. The A1 is a little softer, but exhibits very little CA at full tele end - something my little HV30 lens cannot compete with. Also, I would like the ability to take the camera into a nightclub, or similar venue, and not worry about possible CMOS issues.

Even if Canon releases a new model, I figure I could still sell the A1 on the ultimate seller's market that is Ebay for at least half of the purchase price.

Regardless of what others say about HDV, it is a proven format that I am comfortable working with and was obviously well-engineered.

Thanks for all the replies.

[Braceface]

to the original question. No. I don't. They are too close in quality to justify the price difference. I'm REALLY glad I got the HV20 instead of the XH-A1.

[fishops]

If you're actually going for pro, I can't say enough good things about the HVX200. Especially compared to the A1. They aren't really in the same class. The manual controls on the HVX are actual, real non-servo manual controls, there's no focus ring lag, you can disable the zoom servo, the iris, gain and gamma controls are top-notch. DVCPROHD is leaps and bounds better than HDV by every reasonable metric, and you can do real over/undercranking in-camera. The only glitch is the price of the P2 cards.

I would either jump on a used HVX or wait for the HMC150 if your post workflow can deal with AVCHD.

[Duke]

I would either jump on a used HVX or wait for the HMC150 if your post workflow can deal with AVCHD.

Except the HVX and HMC150 both have soft images from an interpolated low resolution sensor. The HMC is perfect other than that, IMHO.

[fishops]

Except the HVX and HMC150 both have soft images from an interpolated low resolution sensor. The HMC is perfect other than that, IMHO.

That's up for debate, and depends on your delivery requirements anyway. I would take the 80mbps, 720p native HVX with full manual control over the servo-plagued A1 any day of the week. I have never had a client ask for 1080 footage, even for MTV, and frankly even interpolated the 1080 image from the HVX is excellent.

I have heard the complaints about soft imaging from the HVX, and I've never experienced it first hand. I will say that the depth of field is surprisingly narrow for a stock camcorder lens, especially in low light, and the autofocus is not great. I wouldn't be surprised if focus error was the cause of the soft image complaints.

[Ian-T]

No...the HVX's image is just too soft. That's due to the pixel shift technology they use. That goes for the HMC also. You peobably never take notice because you are used to that look. So was I...until something sharper with more details came out. Yes...the HVX is a cool cam...but detail for detail up againts the A1...the A1 wins IMO.

I understand resolution is not everything....but you can match the HVX's colors in the A1...and the detail is much greater than the HVX. You would have to go up to the HPX to see a more detailed image.

[fishops]

"Too soft" is up for debate. I deliver 720p, which is the native resolution of the HVX. There's no interpolation, no pixel shift, I'm editing what the CCDs are picking up and dumping onto the card. Sure, I bet if I were working in 1080, I would notice softness, but I'm not, nor do I need to.

You can't match the HVX's color depth in the A1 because it's recording over three times the information. It's not a real comparison. HDV is 25 megabit Mpeg-2. DVCPROHD is 80 megabit 4:2:2. It's like comparing MiniDV with DigiBeta or DVCPRO50.

Resolution is only one piece of the puzzle, and is the only real advantage the A1 has over the HVX. If resolution is a deal-breaker for you due to your delivery requirements, then I wouldn't hesitate to suggest the A1. At 720P, the HVX is in a different league entirely.

I'm also wondering how you know what sort of sensor the HMC150 has, since it hasn't been released yet and as far as I know, that spec hasn't been published. Can you link your source?

[Ian-T]

I'm also wondering how you know what sort of sensor the HMC150 has, since it hasn't been released yet and as far as I know, that spec hasn't been published. Can you link your source?

Pixel Shifting in the HMC-150 only speculation on my part... But there are video samples you can view. With the HMC-150 it's not that the image is bad (it's a lot sharper than the HVX and looks better)...but it seems like it has the same noise issues as the HVX . Of course...when you downscale to 720p it hides them.

[Rumpelgeist]

> At 720P, the HVX is in a different league entirely.

In progressive mode the A1 should be pretty close to the HVX, as the A1 has interlaced sensors and use some clever averaging to produce progressive frames, thereby losing resolution.

[David]

Is the Canon XH A1 still worth the money vs. owning an HV30?

If you have the money and the desire for better control over your camera, I'd say it's definitely worth it. Using the A1 is much easier than the HV20/HV30 because it's actually set up to be used in a production environment.

[supergain]

For the price, I haven't been impressed with the HVX footage out there - and I've had less than positive experiences with Panasonic video equipment in the past. The codec might be worth it for archiving sports footage, but for normal narrative or run-and-gun, I find it a strange mix of pixel-shifted SD/HD sensors coupled with a high-bandwidth codec.

A1 footage, on the other hand, runs the gamut from very low-end looking video all the way to clips that compare favorably to anything I've seen out of any camcorder, period.

Most EX1 clips I've seen have a bit of a strange tint to skin tones. The overall color balance I'm looking for just doesn't seem to be there. I might be wrong, though - it might be due to the amount of folks with more money than chops jumping on the EX1 technology bandwagon and quickly posting some questionable results.

I admit - it's a bad time to buy a prosumer camera - but that's life. Thank goodness I was never banking on the Scarlet being out any time soon.