Umm...not true. But the root of Christianity is from Abraham which is much much further back. And being that the world is not really as old as scientists make it out to be I highly doubt the latter.Originally Posted by cornreaper
And Christianity came 1500 years after Hinduism, as well as 10,000 and 40,000+ years after the beliefs and cultures of indigenous Americans and Australians respectively. Just sayin'
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
...... yet they are still living in tents...hmmmAnd Christianity came 1500 years after Hinduism, as well as 10,000 and 40,000+ years after the beliefs and cultures of indigenous Americans and Australians respectively. Just sayin'
Yet
I don't want to get into an argument about geology so we'll avoid arguing actual numbers. My point is that Christianity is not the oldest religion, far from it. Countless reglions in Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania were around before Christianity, and existed concurrently with it without any awareness of it. Only in the last several hundred years as a result of globalization has it spread into virtually every corner of the world, in many cases forcibly supplanting the existing belief system.
You make a good point, and it's probably my fault for appearing that way on here. These kinds of debates are so much easier in person. Anyway...
You're right that I've been raised in a religious home. Until I was about 12, my family and I attended an Evangelical Presbyterian church. Then my mom switched us to a church in the Charasmatic Episcopal Church. My dad hasn't attended church for a long time (before the switch) for reasons I know not. So that was pretty much a 180° turn for me in terms of the church itself, and it took me a few years to really reconcile the differences between what I learned in the EP and what I learned in the CEC. However, I'm glad of the change now since I understand, from experience, pretty much both extremes of the Christian faith (my church is very similar to Catholicism, using much of the same liturgy, though our beliefs to differ on many points). The church we attended was part of a Benedictine Community, though my family and many of the attendants were not part of the Community. Then, to make a long story short, the Bishop made many bad decisions which deeply hurt almost everyone there, my younger sister got together with the Bishop's son who was married with 5 kids, has since divorced his wife to be with my sister and will treat her like scum, and the Community itself has broken up over this and the other massive problems the bishop wasn't willing to face.
So, as you can see, I've got plenty of reason to be angry with the church, and no one could blame me for leaving the church. But... my faith is not in the church, my faith is in Christ. Therefore, while this has been a very painful experience, it has also taught me much.
Also, I have had too many things happen in my life to not believe there is a God who cares about me. I have come through too many things completely unscathed (crashing into a car on my bicycle @ 25+ mph, spinning off the road at 55+ mph, just to name a few) to not believe that Someone is watching over me. I've had other experiences that you can't really explain by science. I have a hearing loss, and it's genetic. While it's not very severe, and most people don't realize I have it, it is difficult to communicate with people when I'm not wearing my hearing aids. I remember one time in church where it literally went away for a couple minutes. And, no I wasn't high, I hadn't had any wine from the Eucharist (as if a sip was enough to make someone buzzed), and I wasn't really even that involved in the worship at the time, so there wasn't an emotional high.
I have looked at things from other people's points of view. I've even stated that, if their premises were true, I would absolutely agree with them and can see their point. But I disagree with many people's premises here, and that's OK. I look around at this planet and it just screams to me that Someone made it. The statistical odds of this happening are astronomical. I think I've stated it before, but you have a better chance of throwing a bomb in a junkyard, detonating it, and having a fully formed, fueled, and functioning Boeing 747 come back down than for this to have appeared by randomness. No one looks at a Boeing 747 and thinks it randomly evolved. I don't understand how we can think that we, who are far, far more complex and intricately constructed than a 747, did evolve by random chance.
And then there's the issue of sex that's been thrown around here. I've personally seen how premarital sex has destroyed relationships that could have been beautiful, and not because the Church guilted the couple to death. Add the STI factor in, and it seems quite unwise to me, and downright dangerous.
I hold these opinions because I have studied the other ones, and found them to be insufficient. But I have learned things here as well... especially, in particular, the points brought up about how God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide have stuck with me, and I've been meaning to ask a friend of mine, who is an incredible scholar of both the Old and New Testaments, about it. It's not making me doubt my faith, but it has given me cause to ponder, which is always a good thing.
So... I am open-minded, but only if it checks out. Which is how nearly everyone goes about it. If you assume everything you hear is true, then you very quickly run into problems (general you, not specific). Also, by saying I wanted other people to look at things from another point of view, all I was looking for was something like what I've done: and acknowledgment that, if my premises are true, what I'm saying is logical or accurate.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
iThinker, even though you have lived different flavors, or interpretations of Christianity, my point was that the common denominator is still there. Christian God.
When I look around at the world, Advaita Vedanta makes WAY more sense than any biblical precept. However, one would have to take a moment to empathize with the perspective in order to see it.
I've been to Baptist churches, Presbyterian, and Catholic. Sure they have stark differences in practice and in rhetoric. However, they all have the same God at the end of the telescope. And honestly, taking most Eastern thought into consideration, Abrahamic concepts are extremely hard to swallow.
HV30 | Nikon D90
My Videos
Hmmm... I could be mistaken, I am fallible! Could you give me some examples? I did take a philosophy course that covered Plato pretty thoroughly, but it's been a few years and I could be a little off on it by now...
First off, thank you for sharing... for me, at least, it helps me to understand where you're coming from much better. And it makes sense. I still disagree, though ;-). But that's OK.Then I grew up. Just like the tooth fairy and Santa Clause, I saw god for what it is.[...]ultimately settling on a belief system that highly favors the NON existence of god, but acknowledging that if it DID exists, it would be more like "everything", meaning, literally, everything ; probably not sentient, though if, obviously very aloof. (In essence making me part of god, the way Ian-T is, only without the fancy christian wrapper)
Though I would point out that it is not at all part of Christian theology to preach that we are part of God. We have the Holy Spirit within us, but that doesn't actually make us part of God.
Yes, and as I have said before, that contradicts what I've learned about the Bible. Many of the "gospels" that were rejected from the Canon of the New Testament were rejected because they didn't meet the qualifications of accurate historical documents. The four Gospels we have were written by the people who actually interacted directly with Jesus. None of the other Gospels were. The so-called Gospel of Thomas was written 200 years after Christ. To include a "gospel" such as that would simply be foolish.To address your "book": It was written by men and is incredibly corrupt as I have mentioned in other posts. It's not just fairy tales by fanatics. It is far worse. They are stories deliberately designed and edited to "sell" you a particular brand of faith. And don't forget every other religious tradition has their "books" also. Most of them are not any more true than yours.
And, as I've said before, while other traditions of religion have their books as well, none of them except the Islam book (which I can never remember how to spell!) have the history behind them. And the book of Islam is simply someone who took the Bible, removed the bits and pieces he didn't like, inserted his own writings, and then declared himself a prophet. Yeah, I'll probably get flamed for saying that.
I hope you know I'm not necessarily attempting to convince you that you're wrong, what I'm doing here is exploring other people's worldviews because I don't have enough secular interaction (though that may change once I start working). As CWild pointed out, I grew up in the church, and I do have precious little experience outside it. For me, this is education.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
Hahaha, no, I'm not saying that. Is the Bible itself a religion? No. Therefore using it as a moral guide does not mean I claim that religion invented morality.
I believe that God instilled in us a sense of right and wrong, and that's where our morality stems from.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
I guess it's a good thing they don't believe that, huh?
Why? It's essentially what you're doing with this post... you're attempting to show how religions are wrong. It's low-level, but this post, and almost every other post in this thread, could be considered a form of witnessing.If the Protestants believe they need to convert the other faiths by proselytizing, missions or 'witnessing' they are wrong.
Who is to say someone is good? You? Me? Halsu?Would a just God refuse a good person's admission into heaven just because they had never heard of the religion? That wouldn't be justice.
We should be promoting kindness, justice and peace not a religion or atheism that is unwanted by others.
Who here is good? Have you ever lied? Even once? Have you ever stolen? Have you ever cheated?
I know I've done those things... guess what that means? It means I'm not good, because good people don't lie, cheat, and steal. Do liars, cheaters, and thieves deserve to go to heaven? You tell me.
You're right that we shouldn't impose our religions on people who don't want it. But that isn't the same as witnessing to people.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
Judgements, which is what "right and wrong" are, aren't instilled in us by a God. A baby has NO CONCEPT of these judgements. Right and wrong are social concepts, and based on your geographical location they can be drastically different.
To me this isn't in line with your claim of objectively looking at the world around you to decide your beliefs. It's no mystery that any and all judgements, which are culturally exclusive, are learned through lengthy observation and reinforcement.....not instilled by a deity.
HV30 | Nikon D90
My Videos
Gosh, that's a really sad way to view life. You honestly believe you're not a good person because of some actions you took in your life??? Superficiality is the basis by which to judge who is good or bad? No thanks, you can have that set of beliefs all to yourself. How dismal.
HV30 | Nikon D90
My Videos
First off, there are several gospels which aren't included in the bible written by supposedly real people who interacted with the supposedly real Jesus . An example would be the gospel according to Judas (underrated gospel if you ask me).Yes, and as I have said before, that contradicts what I've learned about the Bible. Many of the "gospels" that were rejected from the Canon of the New Testament were rejected because they didn't meet the qualifications of accurate historical documents. The four Gospels we have were written by the people who actually interacted directly with Jesus. None of the other Gospels were. The so-called Gospel of Thomas was written 200 years after Christ. To include a "gospel" such as that would simply be foolish.
And, as I've said before, while other traditions of religion have their books as well, none of them except the Islam book (which I can never remember how to spell!) have the history behind them. And the book of Islam is simply someone who took the Bible, removed the bits and pieces he didn't like, inserted his own writings, and then declared himself a prophet. Yeah, I'll probably get flamed for saying that.
Second, I agree with you on your statement about Islam. It's basically Christianity. But you need to have a look at your own religion with a critical eye too. For example: basically the whole bible is ripped off from ancient pagan texts (those kind of texts christians burned for centuries to cover up their tracks). The Noah's Ark story is a plagiarized version of the Epic of Gilgamesh and don't even get me started on the whole Jesus, "The Savior", thing - a mythological prophet whose attributes appear in so many ancient religions and text you can't even keep count.
Life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves. My Vimeo
Please don't bring up points like that where you refute legitimate science, yet can only support the argument with faith.
We both know there is no legitimate science that would prove "young earth" religious zealots correct.
My view is this: if you are religious, stick to faith and don't try to pick and choose which science you find acceptable (confirms your religious beliefs). Either embrace science or embrace faith.
There is no honest in-between.
I'm not LT, but i'd say when someone's freed from a delusion it's pretty rare they would want to to turn back.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
I've never felt more liberated and at peace with myself and the world now that I've realized I'm an atheist. I think it would be great if there was a god, and something happens after my body gives us, but just like everyone else, we'll have to wait and see about that.
The world is a beautiful and magical place. No need to try and credit it's beauty to myth. That's intellectually dishonest.
And for obvious reasons. The Church has you believe that you're this flawed, incapable sinner and you spend your life acting as though that is real as a Christian. iThinker has posited he's "bad" because he has lied, cheated and stolen before. Mental incarceration, and completely false.
So when you stop believing that, of course you're liberated.
Peace comes from within, and it's here right now. You don't have to wait until you die to stop suffering from what is merely self-imposed limitation.
HV30 | Nikon D90
My Videos
What? This is a "religious" debate. You have the much flawed carbon dating (that even some scientists don't agree on) and I have the bible. Go to your nearest bookstore and pick up a bible. Even if you are not a religious person go through the genealogy of man starting from Adam to Jesus Christ. We already know how long ago Christ was on this earth. After you do the math come back with the same argument.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
You talk "magical" and I say "spiritual'.... Does anyone see the irony in that?
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
So you are telling me secular man is allowed to do this but so called religious "zealots" have no place? This is ridiculous. You would have a much stronger point here if all scientists agreed on the same theories...but that is not happening any time soon. And yet....what about those who are christian Scientists?
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
He's probably coming from the perspective that wonders and seemingly miraculous phenomena don't require accreditation to a god.
To me, reproduction is magical. Not just the process of initiating it.But the process of gestation and development in the womb. Absolutely magical.......and not the responsibility of a god. It's just what is. Just because the human mind wants to find some godly meaning behind it doesn't take away from the fact that it just happens and works all on its own.
So yes, some of us can see the magical phenomena of the world and have zero compulsion to attribute it to a deity.
HV30 | Nikon D90
My Videos
Sure... Just as liberated as a man who commits atrocities and eventually convinces himself and others of his innocence.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
That's a common and intentionally misused argument. There isn't a single carbon dating method... and carbon dating is almost always used with other methods to establish age... And don't add the "and some scientists.." because the same can be said for "some religious scholars...". Let's just talk about established and accepted science, not what some young-earth creationists try and dispute. Let Kirk Cameron be your example.... it makes you look foolish.
So I guess you believe the accounts in the Bible where it says some people lived to be 700 years old? You consider that as legitimat and scientific proof, and also assume the bible to be a 100% valid and proven geneology since time began?
Another question... why is incest bad today and why does it cause birth defects, but it was such a great and efficient way to populate the world back in the Bible? Adam and Eve's kids were clearly screwing each other. Wow, talk about kissing cousins
I take it you are a "literalist" where you believe everything in the Bible happened EXACLTY as written? You don't believe that there could be a chance that sometimes people use stories to teach a valid concept, even if story isn't based on fact? That couldn't happen in the Bible?
And I also take it you believe there were dinosaurs on the ark, right?
It's funny though, with all of our knowledge and understanding we can only manipulate life but can't create it.He's probably coming from the perspective that wonders and seemingly miraculous phenomena don't require accreditation to a god.
To me, reproduction is magical. Not just the process of initiating it.
So yes, some of us can see the magical phenomena of the world and have zero compulsion to attribute it to a deity.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
Hmmm... if I didn't cause myself to take those actions, what did?
Do you honestly believe that a person's actions do not reflect the person himself?
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
Nothing like what I'm talking about. Here's an instance where I can guarantee you've never attempted to let go of all of your limiting beliefs and see what happens.
You see, it's the confusing belief systems and attachments to emotional content, etc. that drive people to do "bad" things. It's what causes people to suffer. I'd like you to name me one single Advaita devotee who has committed an atrocity. Just one, that's all I ask. I'd like you to name me one single Advaita guru in history that was found to be corrupt. Just one, that's all I ask. Name a single instance where ANYONE was murdered or abused in the name of Advaita.
I won't even go there with Christianity because we both know how that would end.
The FACT is that it is not the nature of man to commit atrocities. Goodness is the nature of man. The "bad" in the world is a result of man's attachments and aversions to the world itself. Piling on belief systems and judgemental concepts doesn't help you experience that liberation, it only frustrates the suffering.
HV30 | Nikon D90
My Videos
Posting Permissions
