Religious Debate

[HueyNRolf]

Triangular Hue. Got something else?

(3)

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Well you think wrong because I have already passed judgement.... only I have passed judgement on your bible since there is no God. Your bible talks of slavery, of people being subservient, of all men not being equal... etc. Your bible is wrong and intolerant. That's not an insult either so don't take it that way. It's merely the way I see it.




Still waiting for someone to explain that. What is being 'saved' and where do you get this outrageous connection between my savior and someone being nailed to a cross 2000 years ago??

So you agree with gays being excluded and frowned upon?

I'm a grown man not a child. I make decisions for myself and for my family... and your god is not my father.

In a sense yes... but not the way you think. Contrary to what you may believe, I get no pleasure in pushing people to the limit where they burst into flames. But because people like you and Ian basically ARE the bible (because you live it so deeply), one has no choice. it all leaves very little room to maneuver. I see the bible and Christianity for what it is, and that includes the flaws and faults. But when I start telling you of their faults and flaws, you see it as being YOU.

Your Christ has set no example for me and it is not me which must prove myself to it. It must prove its worthiness to me. It must prove its presence, and it must prove that I am, as all Humans.... its equal instead of being subservient.... whether it be human or otherwise. If it can't do ALL of this then your Christ is not worth the time and effort.

The next time you drive by a homeless person, you tell yourself that homeless person is equal to you.

Injustices exist not because God is unjust, but because mankind is flawed.

I think you should run and find a thread where you may derive some benefit or pleasure, as clearly this is not it. Unless you enjoy living in acrimony, because that's all I can find in your post: Acrimony and resentment.

You say that you see Christianity for what it is, with all its faults and flaws. Do you see anything, at all, positive in Christianity? Just curious.

[Bob Sanders]

The next time you drive by a homeless person, you tell yourself that homeless person is equal to you.

Being equal and not having a home and money are 2 different things entirely.

Injustices exist not because God is unjust, but because mankind is flawed.

Are you saying gays are flawed and that's why they are gay? Sorry... your God is just as flawed and unjust as any human.

I think you should run and find a thread where you may derive some benefit or pleasure, as clearly this is not it. Unless you enjoy living in acrimony, because that's all I can find in your post: Acrimony and resentment.

Wait a minute... I thought YOU were the one who wrote an "I have to step back" post yesterday? Maybe YOU should run and find a thread where you may derive some benefit?

You say that you see Christianity for what it is, with all its faults and flaws. Do you see anything, at all, positive in Christianity? Just curious.

Not really. I can't see anything gained by it AT ALL. People can live just as happily without it so what's the point?

You didn't answer my questions:
Do you agree with Gays being excluded and frowned upon?
What is being saved and what am I being saved from?
Where do you get a connection between the lord being my savior and some guy being nailed to a cross?

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Being equal and not having a home and money are 2 different things entirely.



Are you saying gays are flawed and that's why they are gay? Sorry... your God is just as flawed and unjust as any human.

Wait a minute... I thought YOU were the one who wrote an "I have to step back" post yesterday? Maybe YOU should run and find a thread where you may derive some benefit?

Not really. I can't see anything gained by it AT ALL. People can live just as happily without it so what's the point?

You didn't answer my questions:
Do you agree with Gays being excluded and frowned upon?
What is being saved and what am I being saved from?
Where do you get a connection between the lord being my savior and some guy being nailed to a cross?

Well, I think that if you told the homeless person that you and him are equal he would probably laugh at you.

I think that sexual orientation should be no reason to discriminate anybody in society. I even think they should be allowed to have some sort of civil union (but that civil union should not be called "marriage".)

What is the obsession that you have with gay people? Do you think there is no greater tragedy in the world than being gay? Like I said, women are killed, raped, and exploited everyday. Children die everyday of preventable hunger and diseases. Gay people? Really? I'm not saying they should be discriminated, but I think you are blowing things out of proportion. Maybe you should watch a little less Ellen Degeneres? I'm just saying...

If you don't know what Salvation is all about, you apparently have not read the Bible (which doesn't surprise me, as that seems to be the way you were brought up.) Since you are an adult now, you get to make the choice on whether you want to learn about it.

Well, there are many positive things to Christianity (even if you don't believe the message of Salvation is real.) For one, many people have found through Christ the inspiration to help other people around the world. Anything that inspires or gives anybody the courage and strength to do good in the face of evil is fine in my book!

[Bob Sanders]

Well, I think that if you told the homeless person that you and him are equal he would probably laugh at you.

As stated, Humans being equal has nothing to do with money and if that's what you think human equality is then your bible is most surely leading you down the wrong path.

(but that civil union should not be called "marriage".)

Honest answer... but a pretty narrow minded one IMO

What is the obsession that you have with gay people? Do you think there is no greater tragedy in the world than being gay?

Not an obsession... just a prime example of how your religion fractures mankind.

Children die everyday of preventable hunger and diseases.

Yup... and the wife and I do want little we can. We already support one little Indonesian girl through world vision... we'd like to do another but I'm not sure we can afford it as prices keep going up.

Gay people? Really? I'm not saying they should be discriminated, but I think you are blowing things out of proportion.

You may as well slap Ian across the face with that one because the gay rights movement is no less or more important for them than equality for African Americans is for Ian. Blacks in America have struggled for decades... well... so have gays. Of course this all may not be such a big thing to you... after all your a white heterosexual... their struggle doesn't interfere with your life.

If you don't know what Salvation is all about, you apparently have not read the Bible (which doesn't surprise me, as that seems to be the way you were brought up.) Since you are an adult now, you get to make the choice on whether you want to learn about it.

So in other words you don't know and you're simply repeating what the bible says.

Well, there are many positive things to Christianity (even if you don't believe the message of Salvation is real.) For one, many people have found through Christ the inspiration to help other people around the world. Anything that inspires or gives anybody the courage and strength to do good in the face of evil is fine in my book!

You don't need Christ to help people... or to be a good person. Maybe you can give ma a REAL reason as to why Christianity serves some form of purpose?

[cgbier]

I even think they should be allowed to have some sort of civil union (but that civil union should not be called "marriage".)

Stupid question: How do you define marriage?

[MalfunctioningHuman]

As stated, Humans being equal has nothing to do with money and if that's what you think human equality is then your bible is most surely leading you down the wrong path.

Honest answer... but a pretty narrow minded one IMO

Not an obsession... just a prime example of how your religion fractures mankind.

Yup... and the wife and I do want little we can. We already support one little Indonesian girl through world vision... we'd like to do another but I'm not sure we can afford it as prices keep going up.
You may as well slap Ian across the face with that one because the gay rights movement is no less or more important than equality for African Americans. Blacks in America have struggled for decades... well... so have gays. Of course this all may not be such a big thing to you... after all your a white heterosexual... their struggle doesn't interfere with your life.

So in other words you don't know and you're simply repeating what the bible says.

You don't need Christ to help people... or to be a good person. Maybe you can give ma a REAL reason as to why Christianity serves some form of purpose?

There are many good non-Christians. I've already said that. Christianity is not a form of government or a political affiliation. It is a religion. The important part in Christianity resides in the ability for anyone to be saved through faith in Christ.

What struggle do gay people have in modern society, which is different from any other type of struggle anybody would face? Discrimination due to sexual orientation is forbidden by U.S. federal law, so in some ways you can say that gay people are much better protected than, for example, fat people. It seems to me that much of the pain and struggle for gay people has to do with self acceptance, not with discrimination within society. Many successful and admired people in American society are gay, and I definitely don't see their sexual orientation as a handicap.

Equality of human beings exists only in theory. Everybody is influenced by their own circumstances (sex, social status, education, intelligence, wealth,) etc. You and a homeless person are not equal. You may have equal rights in theory, but in practice that is also not true.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Stupid question: How do you define marriage?

Marriage is a term defined by thousands of years of human history. No need to reinvent it, it's easy to come up with a different term. How about gayrriage?

[cgbier]

I wasn't aiming on homosexuals alone. It is defined in the bible as a vow in front of god. I got married in front of a judge, other folks marrying after Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic, Pagan, Wikkan, whatever rites. Are they married in your eyes?

If the Feds don't allow for discrimination of sexual orientation, should it not be normal that homosexual can marry?

[MalfunctioningHuman]

I wasn't aiming on homosexuals alone. It is defined in the bible as a vow in front of god. I got married in front of a judge, other folks marrying after Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic, Pagan, Wikkan, whatever rites. Are they married in your eyes?

If the Feds don't allow for discrimination of sexual orientation, should it not be normal that homosexual can marry?

Yes, people that are married through civil marriage would be married according to society and the government. That would include gay people (if gay marriage is legal.)

I think it's important that gay people be allowed to marry (or whatever name you give to that type of civil union) because otherwise you are discriminating against them. For example, a gay person should be able to receive pension from a deceased long term gay partner. This is just common sense.

Still, I would pick a different name for the union. "Gayrriage" was just facetious. How about "Associated" or something like that? I think many heterosexual couples would probably not like for gay unions to be called "marriage", but I do see why gay people would not appreciate that either. It is an example of a typical conflict.

[cgbier]

I'd see this "gayrriage" as discriminatory.

How about doing it like in Germany: A wedding is only valid if the marriage certificate is signed by a state's official. A pastor or priest is paid by the state (via church taxes), but he is no state official, so he's not allowed to sign the certificate. Gays' marriage is, therefore, equal to a heterosexual marriage. If they need a church's blessing, they surely will find a minister who'll give it them.

I would have married in church for my wife's sake, but we couldn't find a priest who'd do it. Back in Europe I shot ecumenist weddings, presided by priests and pastors, even weddings with a priest and iman.

[cgbier]

Why no gay marriage in church if christianity is that tolerant? Because of Adam and Steve?

I'm not making fun of it, I just don't understand it.

[Janke]

Selling implies a gain to the seller in the transaction.

Ian is not gaining any benefit from communicating his beliefs to you.

What the heck do you think Christians come to my door for? They're selling their cult. The reward? more members. The bigger the cult is, the more power it holds.

Well....

Proselytize.jpg

OTOH, I don't have to read this thread - but people like to watch girls wrestling in mud, too....

[Halsu]

What is Ian and I gaining from this? But most importantly, what did Christ and his followers win? What did Saint Peter and Saint Paul win?

Generally speaking, the gain doesn't by any means need to be political, economical, or physical in nature. I'd argue that an emotional reward may very well be the motivation of a majority of things we all do. For those prosetylizing, it would be the emotional reward of following the command of Jesus to make everyone his disciplines, the reward of feeling that you are doing the right thing, the reward that you feel you are trying to save your fellow men and women.

I'd say that's plenty of "gain" to do a lot of things. And i think that this applies to all of us here too - the main motivation to participate on this discussion is emotional: we simply enjoy doing it, enjoy defending our viewpoint in a debate.

[jet]

Ok Jet...since YOU asked this is my answer:

Actually Jet it's not something that I as a Christian worry about. But what I stated earlier is just paraphrasing what is already written in the bible between the Old Testament and the Book of Revelations in the New Testament. It all has to do with what takes place during the tribulation commonly referred to as the End Times. During this 7 year tribulation, The following sequence of events are expected to happen:

- From hail storms mingled with fire 1/3 of the trees and green grass on the earth will be burned up
- Something similar to a great mountain is burned up into the oceans
- 1/3 of the sea will become blood and of course 1/3 of all sea creatures die
- 1/3 of the ships in the ocean will be destroyed
- falling stars make 1/3 of the springs and rivers bitter which many people will die from when they drink it
- The sun, moon and stars lose 1/3 of their brightness and don't shine for 1/3 of the day and 1/3 of the night
- Scorpion like locusts sting but will not kill people for a period of 5 months
- An army of 200,000,000 kill 1/3 of the world's population
- Continued noise, thunderiings, hails and lightning

Here is a small excerpt from the Bible:


Revelation 6

New King James Version (NKJV)


First Seal: The Conqueror

6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals;[a] and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Second Seal: Conflict on Earth

3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.”[b] 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Third Seal: Scarcity on Earth

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart[c] of wheat for a denarius,[d] and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth

7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Armageddon happens at the end of this world tribulation. This is where the world will be fighting againts Israel, the Beast and Jesus Christ and where Christ Jesus destroys both antichrists.(Rev 19:19-21, Dan 11:44, 45).


Now...based on what I read in the Word of God this is what I believe to be true. Take it for what it's worth. The words are there for anyone to read. Of course it may seem like a bunch of rubbish to nonbelievers but honestly one would have to believe in God first before any of this makes sense. According to the Word, if you believe, then you shall receive the Glory of God. If not...then that's your choice. This has nothing to do with me trying to scare anyone into believing what I believe. I didn't write these words. I'm just sharing with you what I've read and believe to be true. Since I believe God's Word never comes back to Him void then in my mind's eye...it's all true.

Mm well i just dont see the point of preaching the words of a book if they are meant to be of a different context than in the book.
Ian i dont know if you have a family,you are one of the more forceful advocates of christian religion,what would your fealings be to a sibling who ended up an Atheist.

[cgbier]

OTOH, I don't have to read this thread - but people like to watch girls wrestling in mud, too....

I have hard times to imagine Ian or Bob in a string bikini.

[cgbier]

Kids, this is a debate, and Ian is using his book to strengthen his arguments. A counteract would be if you used your books to strengthen your arguments, not shooting the messenger.

[Halsu]

I know...right?? You have to give some of those translators credit on how they did that. I see that as a gift. I'm a songwriter myself and I sometimes find it awe inspiring to see a talented writer use the least amount of words to fluently tell their story in a somewhat descriptive (like) manner. It's NOT an easy thing to do.

Ian, is any of the music you've written available anywhere? It'd be very interesting to hear some.

I dabble with tunes myself too, though i haven't really been too active a songwriter lately. I've participated in some online music collaborations at...

http://thewombforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7

...and i was in song writing turn a while ago. The song that was chosen was an old tune of mine that got rather different during the process, including the producer rewriting a lot of my lyrics, plus a "chorus", which the original didn't have at all. But i must say i like the result, even though i can't claim it's my song anymore, but rather co-written with the producer (in addition to songwriting, i play drums on this one):

http://eki.pp.fi/musa/CaPE/Cape8-Tea...ere_We_Are.mp3

Anyway, the team's name was Zeitgeist, and that inspired me to write a new song with the same title, for consideration by the team. It didn't get chosen (luckily), but i did make a demo of it. Zeitgeist means "spirit of the times", so i tried to make a song that was a tongue-in-cheek go-through of the secular world view, an "anti-gospel" if you will. Not sure how well i succeeded, but it was fun to write something new after a looong break, and i guess this is pretty well on-topic for this thread ;-)

http://eki.pp.fi/musa/CaPE/Zeitgeist_v014.mp3

You'll have to excuse me for the vocals - i'm by no means a singer, as said, i made this as a demo only, so i played and sung everything by myself.

[Halsu]

If I may offer a bit of (probably) unwanted insight, Bob, I think the solution to your problem is quite simple: Just ignore Christians. As a matter of fact, I am honestly puzzled as to why you like this thread so much. From my perspective I'm defending my truth and trying to help other people. What is it that you attempt to gain from continuing the discussion?

I wouldn't be surprised his motivation turned out to be exactly the same as yours ;-)

[Halsu]

Gill,

1. I have already stated before that my political or moral beliefs are the same now than when I was a practical atheist. A clear example is abortion, and I've already talked about this. Regarding morality, I am an advocate of education (but I don't believe in preventing people from doing something unless it is to cause harm to somebody else or to animals.) The case of suicide is an exception, and I am against suicide (which also happens to be illegal.)

2. You are looking at Christianity like a political platform. I understand that there is a clear relation between moral beliefs and the will to regulate such moral beliefs through legislation. I also think that the trend in modern society is to distinguish between morality and legality. I am not against this trend, as long as the specifications contained in my first point above are respected. I think morality (when it doesn't involve clear harm to others) is a cultural and an educational problem which cannot be coerced on people.

3. I know many people don't agree with me, so points 1. and 2. won't apply to them.

Actually, i pretty much agree with you on most points, except for the abortion part obviously. As for suicide, i'm a bit ambivalent. I'm against suicide in the sense that i think every life is unique and valuable, this life is all we have so it's a terrible waste to end it prematurely. And suicide often causes severe emotional pain in those left behind. In the other hand, i respect the desire of i.e. those who are terminally ill and in constant pain to end their misery rather than go on living.

4. Yes, atheism is a belief system just like Christianity. It implies also certain moral values. And, an atheist can proselytize like anybody else, by attempting to convince other people to change their beliefs. Proselytizing is basically attempting to assimilate people into your belief system (whether it be a religion, or the belief that God does not exist.)

This i strongly disagree with. Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief. There's no shared moral values that would apply to atheists, no common nominator other than the lack of belief. Atheists are not a group per se, as atheism is defined simply by not belonging to a certain group, that of the theists.

5. Bear in mind that there is as much scientific evidence to support atheism as there is to support theism (and that would be none.)

Here we still disagree: the very nature of science is atheistic in the sense that it operates without ever invoking gods to the equation. Every scientific discovery is thus a godless one, and as such one that strengthens the secular world view. At the same time, many of the scientific discoveries are in direct conflict with the religious texts.

[jet]

Kids, this is a debate, and Ian is using his book to strengthen his arguments. A counteract would be if you used your books to strengthen your arguments, not shooting the messenger.

Even if some words from the book say bad things,no i would rather use my own.

[cgbier]

Even if some words from the book say bad things,no i would rather use my own.

I bet your view on this world has developed (partly) by reading the one or the other book, so you'd be able to at least paraphrase.

[jet]

I bet your view on this world has developed (partly) by reading the one or the other book, so you'd be able to at least paraphrase.

True there are many things i have views on and some may have been influenced by books,but i would not paraphrase what i dont like.

[HueyNRolf]

Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief.

Incorrect: It's a lack of belief in the existence of God/s.

There's no shared moral values that would apply to atheists, no common nominator other than the lack of belief

. . .in God/s. Incorrect: The common denominator is the term God/s.

atheism is defined simply by not belonging to a certain group, that of the theists.

Incorrect: Atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of God/s.

the very nature of science is atheistic in the sense that it operates without ever invoking gods to the equation.

Incorrect: Atheism operates within the lack of belief in God/s. Science does not.

You've been under suspicion for some time but now, I'm sure. It was you who edited deGrasse's Wiki page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU...MC5rWvos#t=92s

[Halsu]

Incorrect: It's a lack of belief in the existence of God/s.

And that makes a difference exactly how?

Incorrect: Atheism operates within the lack of belief in God/s. Science does not.

If science does not operate within the lack of belief in God/s, it must then operate within belief in God/s. It clearly does not. And there's no third option.

You've been under suspicion for some time but now, I'm sure. It was you who edited deGrasse's Wiki page

deGrasse seems to support a rather narrow definition of atheism, one which only includes the atheists that are both "stong" atheists and outspoken activists. It's understandable that he wants to distance himself from that crowd, but unfortunately his definition is not the correct one.

The ones changing his wikipage are actually the ones that are correct, not deGrasse himself. Unless he actively believes in God/s, he is in fact an atheist, regardless of how he describes himself.