Ian, despite the fact that we don't see eye to eye in terms of beliefs, I must say that your devotion/immersion is commendable. I know far too many "surface dwellers" that don't even know why they claim to be Christian, but defend it passionately nonetheless. Anyways, just wanted to let you know.
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I have to think sometimes that some or maybe a lot of folks who claim they don't believe in some sort of deity are really just blowing a lot of smoke. What I mean is....I don't can't imagine that they entirely believe what they are saying. The world I think would be a much more chaotic place...and much less civilized. Why not just eat drink be merry....and then jump off a bridge? After all..it's all going to come to an end anyways. An instead of suffering through old age and all its ailments...just end it. The thing is...eassier said than done. You know why....??? Because of fear. fear of the unkown. If we are all going to dissipate to nothingness...then what's the fear?
I'm guessing here...but i think most civilized societies (if not all) started through some form of religious beliefs. Don't you think?
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
PeaceOriginally Posted by CWildenradt
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
...???You mean we can view them? Didn't know that.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
since ( someone responded to my question about fear of God )
There is no excuse there. Fear out of love is far fetched at best. If one is to break down (someone's) response to my question you still end up with fear. A God that created beings TO fear him. Wow....
Why would a Christian fear God? Lets look at it in another way. I don't believe in god, of course, but I fear, respect, and aknowledge, that people in the world can do things to harm me, as I can also harm myself if I make choices that impact myself or others negatively. I know that it will not pan out nicely. But Christians fear god himself. That is the issue. So that makes God the problem, and not man. I could understand if Christians feared THEMSELVES, since they are man, and sin, but that would still bring things back around to God having created man, which in turn makes God the doer of bad. So Christians, if rightly so, would indeed fear God because he is BAD.
It's an unjustifiable answer to a simple question, that is circularly argued.
In short, the need to fear God makes no sense, unless god is BAD, for one reason or another, wether because you or somebody else was created by him, which makes him........ on and on. It's madness. Not to be harsh, but it's so hypocritical that it makes my head spin why the belief continues at all.
Aquarius
It must be new or something, because I've looked for it and never seen it before. It doesn't seem to show who left the rep, though.
But I can take a wild guess who left me the neg
You know man, outside of this thread I always make a point to read your posts, since they are usually better than most of the peeps around here with lots of the green bars.
But ... so far, I'm starting to skip over your posts because I really can't follow what you're trying to say
1 (Mal). You see, to me this is condescending. More of that you don't understand, or you don't really mean what you say garbage.
And to answer the question about jumping off a bridge, and drinking too much.... BECAUSE it doesn't work , it's not sucessfull, and people learn that they cant just do whatever they want all of the time. Again. God is not needed in the equation.
Aquarius
Indeed. Thanks.You know man, outside of this thread I always make a point to read your posts, since they are usually better than most of the peeps around here with lots of the green bars.
But ... so far, I'm starting to skip over your posts because I really can't follow what you're trying to say
Aquarius
To Braceface and Halsu and any others obviated by their spiteful posts:
So far, I've quietly noticed that while Ian-T tries to candidly point out his beliefs in a respectable manner, you both seem to include nasty and snide remarks in your comments back to and about him. I notice neither of you as condescending to him as in this one.
Why do you attack him when he clearly makes no attack against you? Better yet, what makes you hate those who call themselves Christians? Is it because of what you feel is contradiction or circular logic 'put down' as you like to say? Is it the seeming hypocrisy in all religion that angers you or just Christianity in particular?
And by hypocrisy, I don't mean Ian-T's beliefs but by the actions of those who self-profess to be "Christians." In their own Bible they are told not to judge others and while many do, some do not but most determine themselves and others to be "Christians" or not.
From what I understand of Christian followers is only God can judge whether one has met the test of a being a "true" Christian. It would lend itself thenl that one can only try and lead their life according to Christian principles and examples as set by their savior, Jesus Christ. Therefore, one cannot judge for themselves or be judged "Christian" by any other.
And they are told they only have to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior for their worldly sins to be forgiven and so they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Does this act alone make them "true" Christians or anly Christian followers or belonging of Christian faith.
What in principle, is wrong with that? And why should someone with those beliefs be subject to your thinly veiled and smug taunts, especially in a fair and open discussion like this?
You both appear intelligent but somewhat inconsiderate as well. Do you think man has everything figured out or ever will have to virtually eliminate all other possibilities from any consideration? You not only stand firm on the proven fallible "science" of man but do so without an ounce of respect or consideration of others. Religion is just an idea, same as any of your ideas. Followers believe in them just as strongly (maybe more) than you do. And they could be just as wrong as you could be.
But if I had to side with anyone for just being a decent human being in this thread, I'd side with Ian-T whether I agree with his beliefs or not.
Both you guys need to raise your personal bar as far as I'm concerned, especially if you want your views to be taken seriously.
For a good example, why don't you study Ian-T's posts. Even though you obviously disagree with his beliefs, you might just learn something from him when it comes to consideration of your fellow man. Although from your responses in this thread to him so far, I'm not holding out much hope.
EDIT: This is NOT an attack against either of you, just my observation from reading through this thread. Neither of you have treated me or my ideas/beliefs like you have Ian-T's, IMO. Kinda' makes me wonder why.
Last edited by previdman; 2009 April 20th at 09:31.
I know enough to know what works ... at least until it blows up.Then I know it don't.
...
Surprisingly, Previdman didn't say a single thing that I could argue with if I tried.
To put it simply, yes, I believe we do. Fundamentally anyway.
I know enough to know what works ... at least until it blows up.
Out of curiosity, do you have any basis or evidence that you used to arrive at your current beliefs?To put it simply, yes, I believe we do. Fundamentally anyway.
Point out one hateful thing I said. ONE.
Consideration of fellow man huh? I'm not the one that holds onto the belief that if you don't believe in my God you'll go to hell. That seems a bit inconsiderate. The views of Christianity are the views that need the bar raised on if they are to be taken seriously. This is a debate thread by title, until it is changed. It's not a one sided preach to the choir thread. I don't hate Christians. That's completely untrue.
Aquarius
I just want to separate myself a little again from Previdmen's take about this.
I like the idea of it, and I'm fond of the notion, however I don't believe in it.
Aquarius
Braceface, have you considered the very humorous anecdote that your user title under your avatar says "Reborn..." ?
Might as well change it to Born Again LOL
Just an accumulation of a lifetime of experiences, an acquired rejection of all religions and acknowledgment man is quite possibly and even most probably, not the be all, end all being there ever was, is or will be.
That science like religion, is of man and man being proven fallible within himself is certainly capable of creating a discipline or disciplines that are fallible as well. Reason enough to never put your complete trust in either.
Or put another way: If "God" doesn't exist, then God help us all.
Actually, I like my idea of earth being a reject planet where everyone here, although of differing intellect and abilities, are here because we didn't quite measure up in the mother society. We are genetically flawed in our limited thinking and awareness, therefore prone to committing acts of violence against each other even to the point of self-annihilation. That's why we're here and why our kind can never be allowed into the general population.
"God" was simply one of the tenured spacemen who herded us here, initially I mean. From that sprang all the different ideas that formed our religious beliefs, differences and fears.
Btw, I agree with your post abt how all information is already out there available for any of us to only reach a measured point of awakening and being able to "discover" it.
And I wanted to write you to say I know we've bumped heads in the past but also noticed you seem to have changed lately in the way you write (or maybe it was in the way I read.) But I do appreciate the change. Not that I'm anybody but feel credit should be given where credit is due.
I know enough to know what works ... at least until it blows up.
As I have neither time nor interest, I suggest you go back and read either yours or Halsu's replies to Ian-T or to each other about Ian-T's candid posts in this thread. And if you can't do it objectively and without your bias showing, have someone else read them to you.
And neither do I. But since you seem to be keeping score, there is a difference between offering one's beliefs up for comment and attacking others for theirs. Again, if you still don't know what I'm talking about, refer to my opening paragraph here.
And THAT is entirely YOUR opinion. One I would defend your right to express here if it were attacked, even tho I may not agree with it.
Maybe so, but absent any expression or intonation it certainly seems that way from your posts in this thread.
And what part in bold, orange type didn't you read abt my post being just my own observation? I'm not challenging you.
Dude, chill down a bit. Even if this were a globally televised forum, you or me are probably not going to change anybody's mind. But speak from your own point of view and don't feel you have to discredit others to bring more validity to yours. Passion is admired, self-importance, abhorred.
Just a thought. Do with it what you will.
Last edited by previdman; 2009 April 20th at 10:30.
I know enough to know what works ... at least until it blows up.
Ha! You're assuming I mean we only have to reject Him once. No, I'm talking about rejecting Him to the end of all your days. If your kids rejected you until one of you died, you'd probably be singing a different tune. Not that you wouldn't still love them and want them back, but now that they're dead, they died rejecting you. If God exists, there's two places to be in eternity: with Him or not with Him. The definition of Hell is eternity without God.
God will *always* take back anyone who repents. Even if they've rejected Him all their life and they're moments from death. Unlike your assumption, I am not saying at all that God will simply reject those who reject Him. If you've shown Him all your life that you don't want Him, He will not force you to be with Him.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
If he snapped His fingers and forced us to repent, it wouldn't be true repentance and love. Love isn't Love unless it's given freely. God wants us to love Him, and if He forces use to do it, He's defeated His own purpose. He's perfectly capable of it, He just chooses not to.
Ian-T made a poor choice of words here. It's not that God can't abide sin, it's that He won't. Just like you won't take your child directly disobeying what you told them to do (before they're an adult, that is). He allows us to make that choice. Just because He's omnipotent doesn't mean He will force us to do whatever He wants. He gave us free will, to force us to do things would take that away, contradicting His own nature.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
Of course i do. I was just trying to point out that bible has no user manual, so the reader can take literally the parts he/she wants, and treat the inconvenient parts as figure-of-speech.
In your case, fortunately, that choice is made based on modern day western secular morale. But there are people who make different, much more dangerous choices.
I base this claim on the different ways bible has been interpreted throughout history: it's vague enough a book that it has beed read differently to suit any agenda the reader happens to have (be it conscious or unconscious).
In essence, i claim morale is independent from bible. Morale is what's used to choose which parts of the bible to follow.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
You couldn't name one could you? It's okay, but don't throw out claims that I said hateful things about individuals in this thread without backing it up. If you're too lazy to dig up evidence of it, then plz be too lazy to slander me.
Aquarius
As far as i know, that's not the case, though global temperature change does affect ozone layer. Here's more on the issue:
http://www.ess-home.com/news/global-...-depletion.asp
Yep, we do.We need electric cars.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Jesus is pointing out here that what we think about is as important as what we do. If you fantasize about hurting someone, while you haven't done them bodily harm, have you not harmed yourself? If you think and envision sleeping with someone who is not your wife, are you truly remaining faithful?
Jesus also doesn't mean you should literally pluck out your eye or cut off your hand. He's speaking in the language of the culture of the time. I've taken Greek level 2-3 in college, and I could translate those verses. He's saying that you should leave behind any part of you that's causing you to sin and fall. If you were out in the woods and got your foot caught under a boulder that you simply could not move, and you knew no one was coming to help you in time, would it not be better to cut off your foot and live? That's His point on a spiritual level.
Look at His teachings as a whole, with the rest of Scripture. Paul makes a point of saying that, since Jesus has fulfilled the law, all things are now permissible for us, but not all things are good for us. You picked out a reference of Scripture without looking at its context, one of the most classic problems of interpreting what it's supposed to mean. Interpreting Scripture accurately requires knowledge of the time as well, so that we can understand the intent of Jesus' message, which is called exegesis.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
So, you are not worried about roasting in an eternal fire, if you gave up your religion and led the rest of your earthly life practicing mortal sins in a daily basis (like i tend to do)?
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
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