Religious Debate

[Halsu]

Very true. I've said it a few times already in this thread.

The way E puts it is as if they are bitterly freeing themselves from some sort of childhood confinement.

Well, i think that's how it really is for many atheists, those who had a religious upbringing. It can indeed be seen as religious indoctrination, or a religious brainwash, and their fervent attitude against organized religion may very well spawn largely from that.

But, there are also atheists like me, who got a neutral upbringing. Sure, i'm still technically a member of the church i was baptized to as a baby, and i did go to a confirmation camp as a kid etc., but religion was not much of an issue of discussion at our family. We followed the main traditions, went to church only if someone died or got married, but didn't practise religion in any form in our daily lives. Participating in the religious rites were more a social issue than an issue of faith. I'm pretty sure my father was a full on atheist, my mom is an Einstein-style agnostic, but i'm not exactly sure because they didn't try to impose their views on me, but rather encouraged me to make up my own mind. Both made their careers in studying genetics, evolution biology.

Long story short, i'm not fighting against my childhood doctrination, i'm vocal simply because i thing religions are not true, no God, gods or other supernatural entities exist, and faith is a harmful and even dangerous trait. Teaching people that believing something without any evidence is a good thing is simply evil in my opinion. I'm also strongly against religious doctrination in childhood, even if it didn't apply to me. I dislike the fact that people, especially children are taught lies. Teaching religions should be a part of teaching history of mankind, nothing more.

[HueyNRolf]

Well, i think that's how it really is for many atheists, those who had a religious upbringing.

Not me. it's true that I had the full on catholic upbringing. Truth is, my parents were fine-unselfish people. The catholic thing was just part of the package. More of an inconvenience than a trauma. It was also a source of amusement for my siblings, friends and I. We had a lot of inside jokes about the violent nuns who ran the faith school we attended and the alcoholic priests we had to listen to every sunday. I can't say that I'd want to change that part of my life.

My elder sister once told me, after bitching about the whole catholic nonsense, that our parents promised to bring us up as good catholics as part of their wedding vows, so cut them some slack. A rather biblical response from a non-beleiver, no? IOW, 'forgive them, father, they know not what they do.'

[Jim E]

Gents, this thread has gone on for so long now, it's beginning to remind me of a saying that I read once, about virginity.

It goes, "Virtue that parlays is already lost".

Not you, Huey, (you've been the least involved), but to everyone else who has persisted in this debate, some trying to ridicule Ian T into submission, and others trying to "logic" him into acquiescence, that saying seems kinda relevant.

Just an observation.

[Halsu]

Not you, Huey, (you've been the least involved), but to everyone else who have persisted in this debate, some trying to ridicule Ian T into submission, and others trying to "logic" him into acquiescence, that saying seems kinda relevant.

Just for the record, even though i gladly ridicule religion and religious ideas, i've never tried to ridicule Ian-T or anyone else as a person. I'm also not trying to convince him to give up his religion - just like i don't think he's trying to convert me to be a believer.

[HueyNRolf]

Just an observation.

It's my observation that Ian is the one who bumps it up when things go quiet. I suspect that he rather enjoys these discussions.

[Jim E]

It's my observation that Ian is the one who bumps it up when things go quiet. I suspect that he rather enjoys these discussions.

That's true, Huey. That's true. Didn't mean you, actually.

Still, it's his thing, y'know? It's important to him. And these guys (and they know who they are), who keep on taking him up on everything he says and pulling it apart... I dunno, to me it just seems like they could just let it go, if they wanted. Even though Ian persists, they can still just say thanks, but no thanks. Kinda like what we all have to do to 7th Day Adventists and Mormons.

What I'm saying is that the guys who are the most vehement and ruthless in their arguments with Ian, may just be the ones who are already halfway convinced of some truth in what he's saying.

Just a bit of pop psychology there.

[Bob Sanders]

I dunno, to me it just seems like they could just let it go, if they wanted.

I am a part of this world too... and so are my children. When I see something pop along that has the potential to destroy their future... such as religion, I get concerned. I don't believe 'to each their own' when it comes to this evil. It's a cancer that spreads if gone untreated. It's a threat to world peace. It's segregation that creeps in and slowly tears the world apart. It's a racism based on intellect (as opposed to skin color). It's a HUGE lie... and not just the good book itself... but all the theft and greed that goes along with it.

I don't disrespect Ian as a person... but I deeply disrespect what he and his kind are doing to my world. This place would be a much happier and safer place if he and others of his kind could find strength in themselves instead of some where outside their heads or in some fantasy world.... If he could stand up on his own 2 feet and say "I am me" and take responsibility for his own actions.

In a nutshell... Ian is destroying my world.... so you'll pardon me if I don't say; "Still, it's his thing"

And btw Krit... If you spent more time concentrating on what you say and less time worrying about how others conduct themselves... then maybe you wouldn't appear to be so ridiculous.

[Halsu]

I dunno, to me it just seems like they could just let it go, if they wanted. Even though Ian persists, they can still just say thanks, but no thanks.

Sure, we could, but why would we? First of all, these discussions are fun. That's the main motivator for me. Second, while i know Ian won't change his mind, rational critique of religion(s) may cause someone else to start thinking for themselves. These discussions may be beneficial to "Joe the casual reader" who hasn't really given the issue much thought.

[Playing]

Just to be fair, I posted this in the Antman's Film Contest thread:

I have an image in my mind:
HueyNRolf has kidnapped Bob Sanders and tied him to a chair in a warehouse.
Being the Audio Wizard that he is, he has set up huge speakers and forces Bob to listen to endless recordings of Ian-T's bible quotes. The only problem with this, as with the Religious Discussion Thread, it is boring as hell and no-one benefits in anyway.

Edit: After writing this I had to go back and read some of the Religious Thread.
I have to admit that the last few posts made sense.

I come here every few month as I am really interested in what makes it possible for intelligent people to believe. And I mean believe anything.

But I don't stick around as if feels to me like having a discussion with a radio.

[Janke]

if feels to me like having a discussion with a radio.

To me it seems more like a stuck record... stuck record... stuck record... stuck record... stuck record...

[Halsu]

Not me. it's true that I had the full on catholic upbringing.

Yeah, bad wording on my part. I meant that i think some, not all of the atheists with religious upbringing belong to that class.

[Ian-T]

Well, i think that's how it really is for many atheists, those who had a religious upbringing. It can indeed be seen as religious indoctrination, or a religious brainwash, and their fervent attitude against organized religion may very well spawn largely from that.

I don’t disagree.

But, there are also atheists like me, who got a neutral upbringing. Sure, i'm still technically a member of the church i was baptized to as a baby, and i did go to a confirmation camp as a kid etc., but religion was not much of an issue of discussion at our family. We followed the main traditions, went to church only if someone died or got married, but didn't practise religion in any form in our daily lives. Participating in the religious rites were more a social issue than an issue of faith. I'm pretty sure my father was a full on atheist, my mom is an Einstein-style agnostic, but i'm not exactly sure because they didn't try to impose their views on me, but rather encouraged me to make up my own mind. Both made their careers in studying genetics, evolution biology.

Believe it or not there are a tons of Christians that live like this. They don’t go to church every Sunday or “practice” any religion in their daily lives. They are mainly the folks who show up to church on Easter Sunday, at weddings, or whatever. Some folks get into a ritualistic like way about religion more than others. Sometimes the only difference between some atheists, Christians, Muslims or whatever is their declaration of what they believe. Other than that if you were to observe their daily lives there isn’t much of a difference to easily tell them apart. I know some atheists who don’t drink, smoke, and curse or engage in any type of risky behavior. Then there are those religious folks who curse like sailors and are into any and everything. Unfortunately though, in my faith, it’s not enough just to live a virtuous and quiet life. You must be born again.

Long story short, i'm not fighting against my childhood doctrination, i'm vocal simply because i thing religions are not true, no God, gods or other supernatural entities exist, and faith is a harmful and even dangerous trait. Teaching people that believing something without any evidence is a good thing is simply evil in my opinion. I'm also strongly against religious doctrination in childhood, even if it didn't apply to me. I dislike the fact that people, especially children are taught lies. Teaching religions should be a part of teaching history of mankind, nothing more.

This is interesting Halsu. Let me ask you this question…. What do you think about Santa Claus? Is teaching our children to believe in Santa Claus “evil” also?

[Ian-T]

...the guys who are the most vehement and ruthless in their arguments ...may just be the ones who are already halfway convinced of some truth ...

Just a bit of pop psychology there.

Sounds a lot like what my wife tells me about people in general (she's in that field of work).

[Ian-T]

It's my observation that Ian is the one who bumps it up when things go quiet. I suspect that he rather enjoys these discussions.

I most certainly do. That's just part of who I am. I used to do this with my buddies and clients at our recording studio some years back. It was fun for all of us to have these types of discussions every now and then. It never gets old for me. Back then I wasn't a committed Christian. I would just start questioning everything and picking people’s brain.

Contrary to what some here believes no one forced me to make up my mind. I was not brainwashed. Something inside me was seeking truth.
You should notice however that I never throw my religion in people’s face and telling them that they are going to hell or whatever. Folks can figure out for themselves where I stand on matters like that without me having to go there.

But yes Huey I like having these discussions. If all of you lived near me I wouldn’t mind getting together every now and then just to chat like this face to face.

[cornreaper]

If all of you lived near me I wouldn’t mind getting together every now and then just to chat like this face to face.

This.

These discussions are much better had in person, when you can look each other in the eye. It would eliminate the "internet tough guy" factor, which tends to sour an otherwise civil debate with needless hostility. It's funny how we get so much more worked up when we can't see the person we're talking to.

[Erik Bien]

Something inside me was seeking truth.

Sounds similar to my own story. My parents were not religious (my mom, an operatic contralto, sang in various church choirs, but other than weddings, funerals and her "concerts," we never darkened the doorstep of a church). However many other members of my family were very religious (my grandpa, a Lutheran minister, had also been a Navy chaplain in WWII).

I spent much of my youth earnestly seeking for "faith" or at least some personal connection to the numinous. I read the Bible cover-to-cover around age 12; one of the Christians in my family learned of this and gave me The Layman's Parallel Bible for my birthday, so I read it again. I accompanied friends to Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Orthodox Jewish and other religious services, discussing theology and borrowing books from their parents or religious leaders. I discovered authors like William James, Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell who attempted to distill universal religious truths from diverse traditions. I read occult authors like Aliester Crowley, Carl Jung's Man and His Symbols, anything I could get my hands on.

In college, I took enough Religious Studies classes to end up with a minor in the subject and read a smattering of religious texts I hadn't yet gotten to, from the Bhagavad Gita to the Tao Te Ching and portions of the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Talmud. I guess you could say I gained a certain ethnographic appreciation for religion, even if I didn't have any divine revelations.

[Bob Sanders]

Something inside me was seeking truth.

If you want truth then you need a mirror... not a bible.

[Halsu]

Believe it or not there are a tons of Christians that live like this.

In Finland, where i live, around 80% of the citizens are statistically christians, me included. According to a 2009 study, only 30% or so say religion plays a part in their lives. So, i'd figure that most christians here are like this, christians only in paper, indifferent, agnostics or atheists in real life.

This is interesting Halsu. Let me ask you this question…. What do you think about Santa Claus? Is teaching our children to believe in Santa Claus “evil” also?

It probably would be, if it was taught for real, like religions are, but it's not. At least not in our culture here.

Most kids have a hunch quite early on that it's some kind of a game, that there's something different going on, that the adults are yanking their chain. But they play along nevertheless. And they also learn a valuable lesson in scepticism when they learn that santa was daddy with a fake beard a few years later.

Now, if Santa Claus was seriously portrayed as a real character, repeatedly and consistently all the way to adulthood, and believing in santa would be taught to be a virtue, then yes, i would say that it would be "evil".

[Halsu]

But yes Huey I like having these discussions. If all of you lived near me I wouldn’t mind getting together every now and then just to chat like this face to face.

Likewise.

[cgbier]

Yep.

[Jim E]

Just for the record, even though i gladly ridicule religion and religious ideas, i've never tried to ridicule Ian-T or anyone else as a person. I'm also not trying to convince him to give up his religion - just like i don't think he's trying to convert me to be a believer.

Halsu, I took you off Ignore because I was interested in what you had to say about my last post. You are one of the people I was referring to, to be frank. And your reply here confirms what I thought.

Thing is, Halsu, when you admit that you happily ridicule religion, but not Ian T, I think you're missing a point. As I said to Huey, religion is what Ian does. It's his thing. It's central to his personality and his life, as he's told us on many occasions. He's frequently tried to make us very aware of that, and I would have thought the more-perceptive among us would have figured out that he's actually saying, When you ridicule religion, you're ridiculing me.

I know he has said that he'd enjoy a face-to-face, but I'm sure he'd also expect that the discussion remain courteous. Ridicule isn't polite.

That's just how I see it. Sure, it's fun to tear holes in something, especially when it's so easy to do. Religion is full of plot holes, if you like, and you can make great sport of shooting it down in flames. Anyone can. But what purpose does that serve, other than to provide some kind of catharsis for people who wish it was true, but know that it's not? Knowing that there's nothing else but this life, and that all your favourite and most-cherished people are one day just going to cease to exist forever, is pretty hard to take. Let nobody pretend that it is. Anyone who says that the knowledge of that fact doesn't make him feel a little low sometimes is lying.

That's why religious arguments can, and do, go on interminably. The longer an unbeliever disputes about religion, the better he feels about it. Because if he's not disputing it, he's wondering about it, and that's painful. I doubt a single day goes by in the life of any human being when he doesn't, at least subconciously, think about his own death.

That's why I say that the people here who inevitably take Ian up on the debate every time he resurrects it, are maybe revealing something about their thinking - something that they aren't fully aware of.

(Btw, would somebody explain to "Bob Sanders" that when he's on Ignore, I can't see his posts? All I see is a green-gray bar that says This user is on your Ignore list. I think he may be posting responses to my posts, as that bar shows up after my posts sometimes.)

[Bob Sanders]

Halsu, I took you off Ignore

Wow Halsu... are you ever lucky! Now don't go and wreck this opportunity he's giving you

[Bob Sanders]

(Btw, would somebody explain to "Bob Sanders" that when he's on Ignore,

What? I can't hear you. I have EVERYBODY on ignore

[Ian-T]

I know he has said that he'd enjoy a face-to-face, but I'm sure he'd also expect that the discussion remain courteous. Ridicule isn't polite.

You hit it right on the money. I was always taught to treat others like you would want them to treat you. So I try my best to stay level headed about everything (not that I always succeed). But I think sometimes folks can't handle that so they try and throw darts for the sole purpose of finding that proverbial button to push. And once they hook you in then it's open season to wave that finger of shame. I'm by no means perfect. But then again no one is. If anything however in dealing with a lot of different personalities here and elsewhere I've grown a bit of a thick skin. You guys keep me sharp.

But Krute, though you are not a believer, I have to say I appreciate your approach in this .....um....discussion (yeah...that's it ). You've brought up some interesting questions in the past that actually made me think. No, not waivering in my faith....just good down to earth questions that made me go back to the Word and get more inspiration.

[Playing]

I have for a long time been sincerely thinking of some meaningful contribution to this conversation.
If it has no impact on anyone with different ideas, it’s a waste of time. If I want bible quotes, I read the book myself. So let me just honestly share my own experience:

As a small boy I sat at the bottom of the stairs intending to wait all night to see if there really was an Easter bunny. To the credit of my parents they let me sit there until I fell asleep.

When I asked my mother how babies were conceived she told me you prayed to god. It was clear to me that there must be a more reliable method as I tried it unsuccessfully with a tricycle.

I was raised a catholic. My mother believed everything the priests told her. My father used the church as a social club. I was an altar boy.
At that age we had a great priest who was quite clear that things like virgin birth were open to question. Religious studies were lively events where we spent great effort looking for loopholes in the laws. I recall one the priest particularly enjoyed: Is it a sin if I ride my bicycle down a hill at great speed on Friday and someone shoves a sausage down my throat? It isn’t.

I had a personal god who liked me for refusing to believe anything without question.

At about the time sex started to raise its lovely head the priest left and was replaced by a particularly slimy creature with the integrity of a snake oil salesman who, at a youth group meeting, insisted he was the absolute authority.
I walked out and a few minutes later everyone else walked out too. That was the end of his youth group. Fortunately my father was on my side.
My mother was a different story. Not willing to lie to her, I told her what I was doing with my girlfriend. This sent her into a spiral of self-destruction from which she never recovered until the day she died. This of course did not make me very forgiving of religion. (Edit: I still refuse to lie to anyone about sex.)

So, to me, the question that I’d like to open to discussion here is not whether there is a god or not but, what is your relationship with that god, imaginary, non existent or real.

My personal point of view is: If there was a god like the god of my childhood, he would be extremely disappointed in anyone on his or her knees. He would have created people with self-respect. It would be insulting to that god to be worshiped. After all if he wanted a pet he'd get a dog.