Wow! I've got a few more cells than the almighty ameba. Will I turn into ... Superman? And will you turn into ... oh no ... look you have become that ... that ...
Wow! I've got a few more cells than the almighty ameba. Will I turn into ... Superman? And will you turn into ... oh no ... look you have become that ... that ...
You can replace my numbers with letters if you wish, it wouldn't change the principle.Originally Posted by iThinkergoiMac
The logical explanation for change is simple: natural selection. Different environments make different kinds of traits either a good or a bad thing for survival.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
You're right in your notion that the evolution hasn't stopped. Us humans, like all other species are in a constant state of change. No-one knows what we will evolve into in the future.Wow! I've got a few more cells than the almighty ameba. Will I turn into ... Superman? And will you turn into ... oh no ... look you have become that ... that ...
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
I think by the rock he meant earth before life.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Halsu, I am worrying about you and me "evolved" into different things. Like elephant and mouse ...
OK! Seriously, do you know who said, " ...There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
Any idea? I know you will google it. To save you some time: he's not a Christian (I think), his name is Charles Darwin.
Looks like he's not on either end of the spectrum.
His wife was a devout christian, and as far as i know he delayed publishing his work for decades in order not to insult her beliefs. So, he might have been just overly politically correct...
Not that it matters, modern view of evolution has, pun intended, evolved from his days. The biggest leaps being population genetics and of course discovering DNA, the building blocks of life.
All modern biology is based on theory of evolution.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
I believe that evolution from one species to another is not possible. Evolution within a species happens all the time.
Like I said, Biblical stories are in the realm of faith, and evolution is (by its own definition) in the realm of science. I'm not sure how it's really dodging the question.
Also, one is a theory, and the other are stories (whether or not you hold them to be true). I've never heard of the "theory of the parting of the Red Sea". I just don't see how you can compare the two since they're fundamentally different.
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One last post before I succumb to homework for the night...
My whole point in raising this discussion was to have an open-minded discussion. Yet I'm not sure I've seen it happen. Everyone is coming at my points with the idea that evolution is as proven as gravity (it's not, gravity can be directly observed while macro-evolution has not been) and not even open to the idea that what we've been taught about evolution could be wrong. Nor has anyone asked what I think about the origins of life, because it seems that most assume that, since I'm a Christian, I probably fall under the stereotypical Christian beliefs.
I'm just trying to get you to think... what if evolution was wrong? What then? I've thought about what if Christianity was wrong and, at some point, I'd be happy to share those thoughts if asked. Just because we've been taught something all our lives doesn't make it true.
Thanks for the discussion, guys, I enjoyed it. Time to do my book review...
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Thank you CW, I also mentioned this about Noah on this thread early on, i feel the same as you . it's silly.
Can a christian please answer this, Are we, or are we not gods children in the christian religion ?
"Emma Darwin is especially remembered for her patience and fortitude in dealing with her husband's long-term illness which became apparent shortly after their marriage. In nursing and humouring Charles through his many ups and downs, she was a crucial factor in her husband's scientific accomplishments."
I think it's called "love." Darwin loves his wife. God loves me. And that's why I am a Christian - not for a scientific reason. It doesn't make sense for me to measure love with a digital scale. It's just different things which belong to two different world.
12 people coming to my house in an hour. I got to go now, take care!
Species do not evolve from one species to another in the sense you think.
It's not about tiger turning into a lion.
It's about a big cat (which was not either a tiger or a lion) that evolved into a tiger AND a lion.
New species form as we speak, the way i described earlier. It's not only ancient history.
Yet you believe the stories so strongly you fail to trust a theory supported with extremely strong evidence.Also, one is a theory, and the other are stories (whether or not you hold them to be true). I've never heard of the "theory of the parting of the Red Sea". I just don't see how you can compare the two since they're fundamentally different.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
OK, I understand your stance on that.
Because I'm asking you how evolution is not possible, but packing two of each species of animal into an ark that one man constructed and then living in it with them for nearly a year is? Or how magically parting the Red Sea is? Or any of the many other stories (which I enjoy by the way) are? I don't see how the science vs. religion argument is relevant or valid when you are professing in both realms.Like I said, Biblical stories are in the realm of faith, and evolution is (by its own definition) in the realm of science. I'm not sure how it's really dodging the question.
I fully understand that they are fundamentally different in terms of the schools of thought that they originated from. I just don't understand how one can discount evolution using science as the basis for their argument, and then turn around and consciously discard science when making their argument for religion. I'm not even trying to convince you of evolution. I just see a glaring conflict in your rationale. I've asked this of many people who have taken the same stance and have never gotten an answer. The question has always been avoided. It's just a question I'd like to hear an answer to, that's all. I'm not accustomed to using something like science as a rationale for argument only when convenient.Also, one is a theory, and the other are stories (whether or not you hold them to be true). I've never heard of the "theory of the parting of the Red Sea". I just don't see how you can compare the two since they're fundamentally different.
Let me ask you this then, to get evolution out of the discussion:
Do you believe that the story of Noah's Ark really happened? If so, how was it possible?
Do you believe that Moses parted the Red Sea to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt? If so, how was it possible?
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As explained earlier, what you call macro evolution (emergence of new species) IS both proven with huge amount of evidence and it IS being observed as we speak.
If someone has a better explanation for the origin of species, with better proof, i'm all ears. Untill then, i'm inclined to think evolution (both micro and macro) is a fact which i accept like all other scientific facts (true until proven wrong).
I fall into this category, but i'm willing to listen - so, what do you think about it??Nor has anyone asked what I think about the origins of life, because it seems that most assume that, since I'm a Christian, I probably fall under the stereotypical Christian beliefs.
Then we'd just need to find another explanation. That happens in scientific theories all the time. In evolution's case this is pretty unlikely at this point - it's one of the most tested and scrutinized theories ever.I'm just trying to get you to think... what if evolution was wrong? What then?
Please do.I've thought about what if Christianity was wrong and, at some point, I'd be happy to share those thoughts if asked.
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentence!Just because we've been taught something all our lives doesn't make it true.
Last edited by Halsu; 2009 April 17th at 20:51.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Hold on now. I'm pretty sure I was the first person you addressed here and I more than answered the questions you asked. However, it was my direct experience that I was sharing with you that you very obviously wanted to disprove. You addressed an extremely small amount of what I have brought up here, leaving the rest untouched. Is it fair to imply that you are the only open-minded person here? I seem to recall pointing out that you and I probably aren't that different, but I think you may have been preoccupied with defending your stance even though it wasn't being attacked. Just my perception of it at least.
Please don't generalize. I have not once done this when addressing your points.Everyone is coming at my points with the idea that evolution is as proven as gravity (it's not, gravity can be directly observed while macro-evolution has not been) and not even open to the idea that what we've been taught about evolution could be wrong.
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The "macro evolution has never been proven" argument is silly. There's an overwhelming abundance of evidence for macro evolution. There is a tremendous amount of functional redundancy between radically different species that point to a universal common ancestry. We have observed insects become resistant to insecticide, bacteria become resistant to antibiotics. We've observed ring species, such as the salamander Ensatina, form a chain of interbreeding populations which loop around some geographical feature. Where the populations meet on the other side, they behave as completely different species.
Of course, it's an irrelevant argument. "Intelligent Design" and "Evolutionary Science" is not science, the people who research it are not scientists, there is no "war on religion" or "war on science". It's all a bunch of made up hooey to legitimize and funnel money into wackjob fundamentalist groups. No actual biologist or paleontologist actually believes any of that stuff, regardless of their religious belief. Science does not set out to disprove religion, it merely observes reality.
Ok you rational thinking guys and gals out there I have something for you to think about. Let us focus our attention to creation itself and how I beieve science actually cooberates what the bible says about it (in regards to the timeframe). This is not meant to be some kind of bible lesson but only a way to show you how they relate to each other.
Most if not all of us are familiar with the bible's claim that life itself was created and completed in seven days. We as Christians take everything that is stated in the bible as literal. I understand that science needs more proof than just theories or so called conjecture. But when I think about the timeframe stated by the bible...and Who God Is it made me curious. Let's take a look at some facts:
From the religious point of view:
God is describe in the bible a Light (Spirit).
In the process of His creating life He is quoted as saying..."Let there be Light...etc"
His Holy Spirit is the third person of Himself which represents the Power of God.
His method of creating happened instantaneously
We know that each of His creation took 1 days worth (24 hrs) ending in 6 days and then rest on the 7th.
From a scientific POV:
We know that light travels 186,000 miles per second.
This means (and you can do the math) that in a 24hr time frame light will travel approximately 16 billion miles.
The closest star (Proxima Centauri) is approximately 4.2 light-years away
The edge (or end) of the universe is 15 billion light years away.
When I look at both these claims It seems to me when God spoke creation in being it happened at the speed of Who He Is...which is ...the speed of Light. That means when He said "Let there be Light"...it took 24hrs for that light to reach the earth and be completed (instantaneously). It goes a little something like this:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth
And of course there was rest on the seventh day. What intruiged me about the numbers is that one day's worth of travel for light is approximately 16 billion light years. Seeing that the edge of the universe is approximately the same distance away is more than just some coincidence. The bible refers to things happening at the speed of light many times....including the story of Lucifer and how fast he and his followers fell to the earth (at the speed of light). I don't know about the rest of you...but for folks making up stories of this magnitude thousands of years ago and seeing how modern science sort of parallels what was said (in regards to the timeframe) makes me go....hmmmm. Even as a non-believer you have to give it the benifit of the doubt....don't you think?
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
I didn't actually ever feel attacked. And I wasn't trying to disprove your experience, and I'm sorry I came across as such. I do realize that I didn't address close to everything you brought up... this is the busiest point in the semester for me, and coming close to the busiest any semester has been for me at all... so I addressed the points which I could quickly do so. Maybe over the summer or something I'll have more time to do actual research and come up with specifics.
I don't mean to say I'm the only open minded person here... and I know I've got some work to do when it comes to being open minded. I have my beliefs and I'm going to stick to them, though. I very much enjoy learning about other people's beliefs, though... I feel like it helps me to understand other people in general.
I could have sworn I wrote "Most everyone"! I hate generalizing too... thanks for pointing it out. My bad on that one...Please don't generalize. I have not once done this when addressing your points.
@fishops: your example is a good example of micro-evolution... because, in the end, they're all still salamanders, even if they can't breed with one another.
There is a lot amount of evidence that most of the cat variants we have today evolved from some other cat... that's still micro-evolution, since they all are still in the cat species. Same for dogs. My point is the whole came from one cell to human beings progression. Science hasn't seen anything like that.
If that's the case, when Noah built his Ark, there would have been significantly fewer species variants on the earth at the time. Food for thought.
For the other replies... hopefully sometime soon I'll be able to expound more on my beliefs (since you asked) and maybe what I'm saying will make more sense. Peace, all.
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That's total crap worse than I have ever heard. How you manage to link god and "aliens" in that manner is beyond me.
Life is here... it's real... it exists. The only question is does it exist in places other than Earth. In my mind, it is not illogical to believe that it can exist elsewhere in the thousands of other planets that are out there.
God on the other hand is in the mind. A mere figment of the human imagination. Always was... always will be. Hell... you people with all your religion can't even agree on what God stands for. Is he/it Black... does he/it wear a turban... is he/it Heterosexual or gay... does he/it believe in things like "Holly wars"..... etc...etc
Meanwhile we KNOW what life is and we KNOW what death is... the ONE single question here is: Does it happen on another planet.
Last edited by Bob Sanders; 2009 April 17th at 22:27.
True to character, eh?
ditto
--------------------------
Sorry, brace, just poking fun at ya, no hard feelings I trust.
Heck, as bad, terrible, and horrible as admin & mods are according to some, me thinks we've been VERY forgiving
compared to other fora, not unlike what was mentioned now by numerous members.
AND ANOTHER BIG OL' OT ALERT:
Nope: check the thread. matt asimpson's post was first by some 19 hours. But as I say, I can re-title it 'Bad Reputation' if you prefer ...
Right, as you were.
True to character, eh?
ditto
--------------------------
Sorry, brace, just poking fun at ya, no hard feelings I trust.
Heck, as bad, terrible, and horrible as admin & mods are according to some, me thinks we've been VERY forgiving
compared to other fora, not unlike what was mentioned now by numerous members.
I do agree with that. I'm the butt of a big joke, but I have to admit that I'm stubborn. It's all good, and I understand that moderators are people like anybody else. One thing I don't understand is why mods WOULD be expected to stay neutral and objective. Says who right? In that way I've always understood that I play by your rules with no illusions. In that way, I know you know I respect you even when I disagree. If any of that makes sense?
Actually I got banned from DVXuserforum because of Kyser's problem with me HERE, but when that happened I never messaged the Mods, or cared enough to ask back. Not once. My loyalty remains with HV20.com. The other place can kiss my ass.
Aquarius
Oh snap. Well, I'm not in a position to ask for that. I'm the one who is wrong. Sorry for that.
Aquarius
Er... like in the Himalayas... where it was lower than Mt. Ararat? Riiiiggghhht.
Be well,
Jigme
More equipment than talent
Who made God?
If that question doesn't need an explanation, then any defense of evolution isn't necessary either.
Aquarius
No apologies necessary: I'm nowhere near as good at "thread Hüsker Dü" as CycleWriter and some of the other mods, so I don't merge many threads, and figured I'd probably botched the job. I was as surprised as you apparently were ...
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