This is exactly how it works. But don't you worry, atheists are being controlled as well. Everyone is controlled. There is no such thing as a free will or free mind. Your actions follow the rules, one way or another. If your actions do not follow any rules that you are simply mad.Originally Posted by ddavidd20
As to video itself... I don't know why it is called music video, but I guess if it is indeed what they wanted then the execution is done well.
Religious Debate
Mods can move all religious debate posts in here.
Most vocal will probably be atheists from New Zealand (they normally are, and there seems to be plenty of them).
Try and keep it civil and not personal nevertheless; i.e. personal attacks (and you know there will be) will be tolerated to a point.
Although this is The Pub, if it gets too rowdy, we WILL intervene with deleting posts, putting members on moderated status, and/or other sanctions.
Be forewarned!
Just to make sense of the previous posts; they were moved from following thread:
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=12064
Revenge posts?
Revenge doesn't come in to it,
theres nothing wrong with debate, and it can be easily kept civil, and to be honest i find it interesting. I myself am an Athiest, but do not hate, or wish to discredit any religious group,
There are undoubtedly some very smart people who follow organised religion,
the community here, seems to be made up of a pretty smart bunch, im interested to hear other peoples views and standpoints,
for Athiests there is certainly an amount of envy for religious folk, as they get to live their lives secure in the idea that if they follow their code, they will indeed go to a better place, and there is certainly no way a god's existance can be proved or disproved.
My problem has always been the validity of man's written interpretations.
ive read the bible, and some of the koran, and tried to keep an open mind,
but the big thing thats me is dinosaurs, nobody can deny dinos can they?
and if not how does this fit in with peoples faith?
I recommend that everyone pops over to randi.org and has a read of the information there.
Humans have an innate ability to see patterns where none exists. When they can't explain these [imagined] patterns, they will attribute it to something preternatural. And from that point on, they will seek confirmation of what they see. Anything that does not fit the pattern is dismissed.
Let's take an example. Let's find a pattern that does not exist, but find lots of 'evidence' that supports this 'pattern'... Eric Gill, the great typographer who gave us the Gill Sans font, was also a artist who carved the statue that stands on Broadcasting House in London. The genitals on the statue have been removed.
Eric Gill was a Catholic.
Eric Gill was also a paedophile who sexually abused many, many people.
So, what can we conclude from that?
Artists create statues for the BBC - No.
Artists are typographers - possibly. Many artist probably do design typefaces.
Artists are child abusers - possibly. Plenty of artists paint provocative pictures.
Catholics are artists - possibly. It is likely that many Catholics are aritists.
Catholics are child abusers - ah, yes, this fits a pattern. Priests who abuse boys (and girls) in their care - there is pleny of evidence of that. Nuns who do likewise - plenty of evidence of that, too.
Yes, Catholics must be child abusers. Everywhere I see Catholics, I see child abuse.
Pattern established, and plenty of supporting evidence.
Of course, there is an overwhelming body of evidence that suggests I am wrong, but I'm ignoring that because it doesn't fit with the pattern of Catholicism and child abuse going hand in hand.
See, it's so easy to make a spurious connection. If I point this out to someone, they too will probably start searching for supporting evidence. And so the myth perpetuates, and over time will be elaborated.
And so it is with many religions.
If someone can disprove the non-existence of god, I would be delighted (scientifically, one can not prove anything, one can merely disprove a null hypothesis. The two are not quite the same).
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I will add this: I am always polite to the Church of Latter Day Saints when they knock at the door. I admire their resilience and respect their views.
Sharp Shooter
As an atheist I see no grounds for the view that people are innately good. They seem to me to have a genetic inclination to a type of territorialism and social hierarchy that gives them a propensity for warlike behaviors and the most disgusting violence imaginable.
It may be instructive to compare and contrast the Chimpanzees and the Bonobos and recognize that their "cultural" differences stem from genetics not environment.
Last edited by bachus; 2008 June 20th at 09:08.
A government that either cannot or will not protect its people from the abuses and depredations of large corporations needs be overthrown by its people. Inspired by Thomas Jefferson.
If you mean by that both have fundamental axioms you are correct. But it is worth examining the nature and place of the axioms.
Science is essentially a methodology for identifying and analyzing the objective aspects of reality and its axioms are encapsulated within the scientific method. The efficacy and universality of that method are manifest in the breathtakingly fearsome transformation technology (applied science) has wrought upon the world.
The axioms of religion are the word of whatever god and that word generally applies to a world of specifics. Religion (depending on its degree of dogmatism) is generally not open to new truths, to new procedural or ethical interpretations.
A government that either cannot or will not protect its people from the abuses and depredations of large corporations needs be overthrown by its people. Inspired by Thomas Jefferson.
I take the Bill Mahre's approach when it comes to religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IcUumWzue4
Rock on Bill!
OH and why do some people keep saying "God Bless America"? What does that even mean?
My favorite religious bumper sticker "God Bless Humanity" were I a believer I'd slap in on my car in an instant. I've seen it in a nearby college town in this otherwise god's country bible belt region where every other car has a "God Bless America" sticker.
A government that either cannot or will not protect its people from the abuses and depredations of large corporations needs be overthrown by its people. Inspired by Thomas Jefferson.
I consider myself agnostic (a copout, I know, but I blame it on my Catholic upbringing) and agree with you. Since inherent in almost every living creature is the instinctual desire for self preservation, the potential and actual propensity to commit absolutely atrocious acts in pursuit of it means we all have the capability for evil within us. Being good requires the constant suppression of that innate evil, not dismissing that it exists.
Religious doctrine over the course of history has been the tool of choice by people in power to rule and oppress populations. The doctrine has been changed countless times to benefit whoever is in power and the situation at the time.
The discoveries of scienece and law of science come from a mysterious source. If anything, people who are inclined to grasp onto a higher being should jumping to science, and not the words written and amended by corrupt people from history.
History has shown that even science can be corrupted by those who seek its truths. The infallibility of man is infallible.
The validity of a scientific theory can always be tested by the community of scientists world wide.
Not so for religious doctrines.
I seriously believe religion do more harm to humanity than good.
Last edited by booggerg; 2008 June 20th at 14:15.
To continue with my assertion that religion is borne of man's innate ability to see patterns where non exists...
Any psychology student should know that in the 60s there was an experiment performed where subjects were told to present themselves to psychiatrists with a list of symptoms that would result in their admission to mental hospitals.
Once committed, these subject (who, incidentally, has NO mental illness) behaved perfectly normally, just as you and I would when going about our everyday lives.
Yes, that NORMAL behaviour was construed by psychiatrists as ABNORMAL; that it, it was perceived as consistent with the contrived mental illness the subjects were supposed to be afflicted.
It proved extremely difficult to have the subjects released from hospital.
As you can imagine, this resulted in a crises for psychiatry. But it demonstrates very well the point I am making. We see patterns where none exists.
All those who have faith in a 'supreme' supernatural existence, please think about this. Try to observe the world, observe behaviour, and don't place religious significance on anything you see. Reflect upon your beliefs and question them.
Don't blindly accept what you are told.
The world is a marvellous place, full of wonder and delight, and still a deeply mysterious place. Science doesn't have the answers to everything, but it tried to find out, and it is willing to stand corrected. Unlike religion.
Sharp Shooter
Ummmm ... errr.... did you mean to say the fallibility of man is infallible?
d'Oh! that was the point LOL Good one
A government that either cannot or will not protect its people from the abuses and depredations of large corporations needs be overthrown by its people. Inspired by Thomas Jefferson.
Scientists are human and as such they bring their own agendas, influences and beliefs to bear on their work, whether subconsciously or deliberately. With the pervasiveness of science for profit these days, money often corrupts the outcome if not the entire validity. I put little stock in absolutes as far as science goes. Take global warming, for instance. It was the better funded side that supports the influence of man in the problem that has succeeded in practically squashing the more scientific (and scientist supported) side of natural influence.
No disagreement there. Religion has been responsible for spilling more blood than any other cause in history.Not so for religious doctrines.
I seriously believe religion do more harm to humanity than good.
If you're talking about the 7 deadly sins than shooting fat people, lust, and greed would be out of the question too.why would you shoot a music video that condones sinful things?
>why would you shoot a music video that condones sinful things?
Because it sells. And because "sin" is a point of view (, Anakin).
I wrote the other day that I would like to shoot an R rated video for Dolorata, a local all-female rock band: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/0...-the-bay-area/
Thing is, the idea I have for the video is dynamite, it can push buttons, and deep inside, all males would love it. So why not have two ladies kissing? It works, and it's not any different than two heterosexuals kissing (which is common on video clips anyway).
I am an atheist btw, but I lived most of my life as a Christian.
Science by its methodological definition does not deal in absolutes outside of those entailed in the tautologies of the mathematical proofs on which its models rely. Anyone who tells you otherwise is BSing.
In the 60s and 70s it was the minority view and had almost no funding. As evidence accrued and more informed people began looking at the fundamental physics behind the "green house effect" there was (and continues to be) a shift in thinking. While it is a fact that there remain a minority of relevant scientists who take the position that GW is a purely natural phenomena it is a very small minority. It may well be true that there are natural forces at work presently contributing to GW which will eventually abate, but the component contributed by CO2 will remain and increase as CO2 increases. However, scientific truth is contextual and contingent on the facts and validated theories available to it at any given time. It may happen that we will discover negative feedback loops that will ameliorate CO2s effect on the planet’s albedo. But until they are found the more scientific view is that supported by the evidence and knowledge (of fundamental physics) that we have available, which is that human generated CO2 is the significant contributor to GW. At present the alarming majority of feedback loops are positive and it is not unlikely that the first major negative loop will involve the collapse of the Atlantic Conveyor—not a happy thought.
Does this mean you like me less, CycleWiter?
A government that either cannot or will not protect its people from the abuses and depredations of large corporations needs be overthrown by its people. Inspired by Thomas Jefferson.
I don't know what exactly is good for humanity. But religion helped to control people before political parties were invented.
Indeed, why not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K54p_fCrGL8
I know of this song and its video Aramis. This doesn't mean that when George Michael kissed a girl in his 1988 video no one after that would use that theme for another video clip. My idea for a clip has nothing to do with the song you linked at.
I heartily agree. Religion had its place in getting civilization rolling, kind of like training wheels. Now it is obsolete - just like unions, cash money and the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Seems an odd response to Aramis. I didnt see where he suggested that once such an elementary idea had been used it should not be used again or if used again it would necessarily convey the same meaning. Really both propositions are absurd, are they not?
A government that either cannot or will not protect its people from the abuses and depredations of large corporations needs be overthrown by its people. Inspired by Thomas Jefferson.
You have to read between the lines of what Aramis said to understand that he was being sarcastic with a somewhat mischievous intent (he tried to show that my idea was not original, he assumed that I am not following the pop scene). Aramis keeps getting into my nose regularly, so my response was not "odd", it was exactly the right one.
I am not sure that I indeed wanted to show that your idea was not original. I just like these girls
I fire off my replies strictly in FIFO fashion, don't have any ideas. Other people have been upset by me too. I am banned on not one, but two forums now. As an admin, you can ban me here too. Time to start my own forum, methinks.
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