Religious Debate

[Jim E]

The USA holds about 1/4 of the world's wealth. Some how I don't feel too bad for you. Hey... that's a great idea! Shall we start with your family first

I'm not American, Bob. I'm Australian. Same as Americans, only less excitable.

Anyway, it's too late for my family. There's 14 of us, living in a shoe-box in the middle of the road. We get woken up every morning by having a load of hot gravel dumped on our heads. So, don't talk to me about the world's wealth!

Anyway, I take it you're against limiting the world's population. Mind telling me why?

[Bob Sanders]

The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. It doesn't say that homosexuals are in any way, shape, or form worse sinners than the rest of us, it says that we are ALL sinners, period. You said "if the church ever welcomes a gay through their doors with no judgment what so ever", meaning a person. A gay person is a human being and God loves that person as much as He loves you and me. You are not judging if you are seeing them as being in the same sinful state as the rest of us and in need of God's love. ALL true Christian churches will welcome them without judgement. I cannot speak for churches that do not teach the Bible nor believe what it says.

Oh please! In your rather selfish effort to try and prove how great your religion is, you do nothing but insult those of the gay community and their decades worth of struggle to be recognized by the church. For years the gay rights community has locked horns with the various religions seeking only to be recognized as normal human beings. Granted the church is SLOWLY starting to crumble and signs can be seen. There are even lists of churches on the net who have change their stance and to the extent of which they have. But to get this far has been a major uphill battle for the gay rights community.... and you do nothing but cheapen their fight with this rubbish.

[iThinkergoiMac]

So, if he was that way with his friends, why did his friends go on to become such pedants and tub-thumpers? I've read the New Testament. All those epistles to and fro, they all "admonish" and "beseech" their readers and generally come across like stern school-teachers. I mean, they do go on.

I see where you're coming from. Are you aware of the context surrounding the epistles? It helps to know it when reading the epistles, and can explain why they're written the way they are. For example, sexual immorality is spoken about in very strong terms in I Thessolonians, and can seem a bit extreme. But the context of the letter is that people in the church were doing all kinds of crazy stuff, including one guy who was sleeping with his mom on a regular basis and was in good standing with the church. People were also getting drunk during church, not simply showing up drunk. Given that context, I'd hope that the tone would be pretty severe.

Okay, I kinda get that. But surely if you want to maintain a personal relationship with Christ, surely there are some rules you have to observe. I mean, even in ordinary mortal society, you have to play the game so as not to be a dick.

Indeed, and this is true of any relationship. I don't sleep with anyone besides my wife. Do I consider that "rule" a limitation or an imposition? No, I want to be married to my wife and a surefire way not to screw that up is not to sleep with other women. While there are surely plenty of churches who get all legalistic about the "rules and regulations", it really boils down to two rules. My church is very liturgical, so we go over those two rules every day:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. The second [great commandment] is like unto it: Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Pretty simple, and not all that demanding.

[Bob Sanders]

Anyway, I take it you're against limiting the world's population. Mind telling me why?

Sorry... I thought you were American.

No, I am not against limiting the world pop at all. I suppose it will have to be done some day.... the problem is how do you start such a deed and who with? What law do you lay? How do you enforce? Do you kill a newborn if the law is broken and that child is the result?

[Jim E]

Sorry... I thought you were American.

No worries. I get that all the time.

No, I don't, really. I just said that to be enigmatic. This thread is getting to me.

No, I am not against limiting the world pop at all. I suppose it will have to be done some day.... the problem is how do you start such a deed and who with? What law do you lay? How do you enforce? Do you kill a newborn if the law is broken and that child is the result?

I'd be basing any speculation about that on the existing stats of obedience to the law in the general population. The majority of people don't steal or murder. And that's not because they already have everything they want, or they don't wish some people dead. They simply choose to obey the law. Most people are smart enough not to sh*t in their own nests.

I believe if governments passed a ZPG law and backed it up with extensive public education and maybe even monetary rewards, it would probably work. Well, at least it would work well enough to make some impact on the problems that over-population causes. So the number of "illegal" births probably wouldn't represent such a massive threat to the population that government would need to kill the baby. They could simply apply some significant monetary penalty, or withdraw some services to the "guilty" parents.

Anyway, I'm probably hijacking here, so I'll leave it at that.

[wildside50]

Hey... that's a great idea! Shall we start with your family first

You can start with mine. I only want 1 kid. Anyone else can have my spare kid slot if they need it.

[Jim E]

I see where you're coming from. Are you aware of the context surrounding the epistles?... the context of the letter is that people in the church were doing all kinds of crazy stuff, including one guy who was sleeping with his mom on a regular basis and was in good standing with the church. People were also getting drunk during church, not simply showing up drunk. Given that context, I'd hope that the tone would be pretty severe.

Well, yeah, you have a point there!

Just curious - how do we know people were drinking in church? (I guess it wasn't an actual church then, as in a building with a spire - more like a get-together in somebody's house.)

But how do we know all that about the drinking at the meetings?

[wildside50]

Sorry... I thought you were American.

No, I am not against limiting the world pop at all. I suppose it will have to be done some day.... the problem is how do you start such a deed and who with? What law do you lay? How do you enforce? Do you kill a newborn if the law is broken and that child is the result?

I think sterilizing after you reach your quota sounds good to me. Treat it like adoption -- gotta earn your right to procreat. Not just anyone can adopt. Why? Because its actually not that easy to raise a kid. Gotta make sure they're qualified.

[Jim E]

I think sterilizing after you reach your quota sounds good to me. Treat it like adoption -- gotta earn your right to procreat. Not just anyone can adopt. Why? Because its actually not that easy to raise a kid. Gotta make sure they're qualified.

Only trouble with that is if your kids die. Say you're still young enough to reproduce, would it be fair to sterilise someone whose kids were taken out of the equation through accident or disease?

Yeah, it would be tricky legislation to get right. But it's going to become a matter of life or death some day.

[wildside50]

Only trouble with that is if your kids die. Say you're still young enough to reproduce, would it be fair to sterilise someone whose kids were taken out of the equation through accident or disease?

Yeah, it would be tricky legislation to get right. But it's going to become a matter of life or death some day.

Sorry, sterilizing infers a permanent thing. I'm thinking more like routine depo shots, or some other form that can be reversed/stopped in such cases.

[Jim E]

Sorry, sterilizing infers a permanent thing.

Not necessarily. Tubes can be untied, and vascectomies can be reversed using current surgical techniques. If it was conducive to the success of ZPG legislation, I'm sure governments would fund research to improve and perfect those techniques.

Less risky to long-term health than depo, too.

[jet]

Dont get me going on population,humans and their selfish ways have grossly overpopulated and are destroying the planet, for this in the modern world i do blame religion,china thankfully knows the problems now.

[Jim E]

Dont get me going on population,humans and their selfish ways have grossly overpopulated and are destroying the planet, for this in the modern world i do blame religion,china thankfully knows the problems now.

Yeah, and not before time! They do have the largest human population on the planet! To me, that's a mystery, because I don't really find Chinese girls all that attractive... ... kidding, of course.

How do you see religion as being responsible for over-population, Jet?

[jet]

Yeah, and not before time! They do have the largest human population on the planet! To me, that's a mystery, because I don't really find Chinese girls all that attractive... ... kidding, of course.

How do you see religion as being responsible for over-population, Jet?

Let me see are catholics not against contraception and abortion no matter what the reason, thats why i said in the modern world but its only part of the problem granted.

[Bob Sanders]

Ahhh yes... the Catholics. Of all the offending religious groups the Catholics have to be about the biggest offenders of rights, reason, and hypocrisy. If you're a woman then you may as well get used to being 'bare-foot and pregnant', and when you do get pregnant the church will basically dictate the child's birth. If you're gay.... forget it, don't even bother. They for sure operate more on the fear of the devil rather than the love of god.... and the money this particular cult has is just unreal. And yet they continue to pass that little donation tray around every Sunday.

They fire a nun at a hospital because she was faced with a life/death situation that involved abortion, but then offer protection..... or at least turn a blind eye to all the priests running around buggering the little ones..... if ever there was a religious following the needs to die.... it's THIS one. It is so old, outdated, and backwards it's not even funny.

In spite of all that though, I'm not sure I agree with religion leading to a problem of over population. Religion in general of one kind or another has killed many more than it has EVER saved. There are only a small handful of reasons why we have wars in this world and clashing religions is one of them. Although ww2 was not a religions war, 6 million Jews died basically because they were Jews... Just about every border around Israel is populated with people that want them dead as they sit there with their thumbs on the necks of the Palestinians.... Muslims and Palestinians themselves have been finding reasons to kill each other since pretty much the dawning of time...

No... the way I see it...if anything... religion is probably one of the best weapons we have AGAINST over population.

[Dr. Benway]

...I'm not sure I agree with religion leading to a problem of over population.

Of course it doesn't - the Chinese and many other Asians are atheistic if anything. Even Hindus, for whom devout is a way of being, inhabit a secular world full of raw sex, sperm, blood, sweat, pleasure and deceit. When it comes to banging and procreation religion is the last thing people consider.

[iThinkergoiMac]

Well, yeah, you have a point there!

Just curious - how do we know people were drinking in church? (I guess it wasn't an actual church then, as in a building with a spire - more like a get-together in somebody's house.)

But how do we know all that about the drinking at the meetings?

It's a combination of other historical documents and what's being said in the letter. When looking at just the English translation, a lot is sometimes lost that can't easily be translated without getting really wordy. So sometimes it's hard to tell if Paul is talking about drunkenness in general and just spouting off in general, or if he's talking about a problem that church specifically is having. In the Greek, it's pretty obvious.

Also, people just tended to be more severe in those times. A combination of culture, difficulty of life, etc... it's not to say that people didn't have a point or that it should be watered down. But you are reading something that's 2K years old, it's going to sound odd in our day. What they have to say is still completely relevant, but it can be difficult to get without any context.

And, yes, you're correct about the location of the church... it wasn't a church like we think of today, they were usually meetings at someone's home, or old heathen temples repurposed, or something.

[iThinkergoiMac]

Ahhh yes... the Catholics. Of all the offending religious groups the Catholics have to be about the biggest offenders of rights, reason, and hypocrisy. If you're a woman then you may as well get used to being 'bare-foot and pregnant', and when you do get pregnant the church will basically dictate the child's birth. If you're gay.... forget it, don't even bother. They for sure operate more on the fear of the devil rather than the love of god.... and the money this particular cult has is just unreal. And yet they continue to pass that little donation tray around every Sunday.

Ahhh yes... the media. They like to report the most sensational stories to get views, and then we get the impression that's how all the Catholics are. I've never met the Catholics you're describing. They tend to have lots of children, yes, but I don't know anyone whose been pressured into having kids by the church, or had the birth itself dictated. Some of the Catholics I know are also the most dedicated Christians I know, filled with the love of God and certainly not operating on fear of the devil.

It shouldn't be surprising that the RC Church has lots of money... you can find its roots in the original Apostles so, apart from the Eastern Orthodox Church, no other denomination has been around as long... if you can survive for over 2K years, I'm sure they'll have money. They're also one of the biggest denominations in the world, so again it's not surprising.

Religion in general of one kind or another has killed many more than it has EVER saved. There are only a small handful of reasons why we have wars in this world and clashing religions is one of them.

Honest question: Can you back that up? Let's assume for a moment, that religious people actually do get saved and go to heaven. I doubt that more people have been killed than have been saved in war. Also, if you take radical religion out of the picture (it's religion gone places it was never intended, or religion abused if you will) then you definitely can't say it's killed more than it's saved.

Besides, blaming wars on religion is like blaming wars on guns. Religion didn't cause people to go to war, people did. They may think what they're doing is right because of their religion, but ultimately the people are the ones at fault, not their religion. Now, obviously, a religion that teaches you to kill people you can't convert is not helpful, but the people are ultimately the ones who make the decision to go to war. Just like saying fully automatic weapons make it easier to kill people. Yes, but that didn't make you pull the trigger.

Although ww2 was not a religions war, 6 million Jews died basically because they were Jews...

Why bring it up, then? "This war wasn't a religious war, but I'm bringing it up anyway to support my point that wars have been started by religion."

[Bob Sanders]

Ahhh yes... the media. They like to report the most sensational stories to get views, and then we get the impression that's how all the Catholics are. I've never met the Catholics you're describing. They tend to have lots of children, yes, but I don't know anyone whose been pressured into having kids by the church, or had the birth itself dictated. Some of the Catholics I know are also the most dedicated Christians I know, filled with the love of God and certainly not operating on fear of the devil.

I wouldn't exactly call a priest buggering a child a "sensational story"

Honest question: Can you back that up? Let's assume for a moment, that religious people actually do get saved and go to heaven. I doubt that more people have been killed than have been saved in war. Also, if you take radical religion out of the picture (it's religion gone places it was never intended, or religion abused if you will) then you definitely can't say it's killed more than it's saved.

- I don't need to back any of this up. It's all clearly written in the history books. Are you one of those who denies the Holocaust or something?
- "Radical Religion" can not be removed from the picture. It exists as religion itself does. You can't have "radical religion" without religion itself..... much like you can't have God without the devil. If you worship God then in some respects you also worship the devil.

Besides, blaming wars on religion is like blaming wars on guns. Religion didn't cause people to go to war, people did.

They go to war because they are different.... and it is that religion that makes them different. Have you not read what I have written in the past? Now what happens if you remove that religion is anybody's guess. Would they NOT kill each other is a question that would be neat to discover. But one thing is for sure... their different religions MAKE THEM DIFFERENT and segregates the populous.... and that's enough cause for war. Let's be honest here... the Christians on this board have not exactly been cruel to the other religions... but you have also not tried to reach out to them either. a few of you have even tried to blame "radical religion" on the "OTHER" followings. This is how wars start.

[b]They may think what they're doing is right because of their religion,[/up]

YUP.

Why bring it up, then? "This war wasn't a religious war, but I'm bringing it up anyway to support my point that wars have been started by religion."

Can you think of why else 6 million jews were rounded up and gassed? Was it because they may all have been wearing pink socks or something of that nature? They all had something in common.... gee I wonder what that was???

[wildside50]

Dont get me going on population,humans and their selfish ways have grossly overpopulated and are destroying the planet, for this in the modern world i do blame religion,china thankfully knows the problems now.

In our defense, that's a lot of nature to overcome to say "okay stop procreating".

[wildside50]

- "Radical Religion" can not be removed from the picture. It exists as religion itself does. You can't have "radical religion" without religion itself..... much like you can't have God without the devil. If you worship God then in some respects you also worship the devil.

I think the point he was making, and one that should be heeded if this is to be an open minded discussion, is that if someone does something in the name of a religion, despite the fact that the religion expressly forbids it, that ought not count against that religion. It's no different then a kid going on a shooting spree and blaiming video games or Beavis and Butthead. Or as someone pointed out earlier, if I kill in the name of HV20.com, should HV20 be held responsible for it, even though they would not condone what I've done?

[wildside50]

They go to war because they are different.... and it is that religion that makes them different. Have you not read what I have written in the past? Now what happens if you remove that religion is anybody's guess. Would they NOT kill each other is a question that would be neat to discover. But one thing is for sure... their different religions MAKE THEM DIFFERENT and segregates the populous.... and that's enough cause for war. Let's be honest here... the Christians on this board have not exactly been cruel to the other religions... but you have also not tried to reach out to them either. a few of you have even tried to blame "radical religion" on the "OTHER" followings. This is how wars start.

I know you probably don't mean it, but that part sorta sounds like you're advocating everyone being the same to avoid conflict. If wars are started because people are different, and religion is one difference to start a war over, and you advocate getting rid of religion, shouldn't we get rid of all white, black, hispanic, and native american folk so we only are left with asian people? One less differnce to go to war over (probably the #1 difference wars have been fought over).

[Ian-T]

Oh please! In your rather selfish effort to try and prove how great your religion is, you do nothing but insult those of the gay community and their decades worth of struggle to be recognized by the church. For years the gay rights community has locked horns with the various religions seeking only to be recognized as normal human beings. Granted the church is SLOWLY starting to crumble and signs can be seen. There are even lists of churches on the net who have change their stance and to the extent of which they have. But to get this far has been a major uphill battle for the gay rights community.... and you do nothing but cheapen their fight with this rubbish.

....settting yourself up to be a martyr eh Bob? Nice,

But...the church is most definitely NOT crumbling. The way I see it is there's a spiritual shakedown going on and those churches who were not true believers (or who are teaching in err) are being exposed while the real church (or believers) are left standing their ground (in other words...strengthened). Makes it a lot easier to discern good from evil if you ask me.

[Ian-T]

Let me see are catholics not against contraception and abortion no matter what the reason, thats why i said in the modern world but its only part of the problem granted.

Well....let's back up a little... How many of the world's population are born out of wedlock? Maybe....just maybe...if people would stop fornicating...this might help the "over-population?" I mean....how many baby momas and baby moma momas etc. are out there? So, other than the obvious spiritual and health implications....sleeping around can have a direct affect on an issue such as this.

[Ian-T]

Can you think of why else 6 million jews were rounded up and gassed? Was it because they may all have been wearing pink socks or something of that nature? They all had something in common.... gee I wonder what that was???

Oh boy....here we are again using the same "crutch" (the WWll issue of Hitler and the Jews) to make a case againts religion...(sad).

You're once again contradicting yourself. You said earlier that WWll was not a religious war etc. but now you are implying that they (Jews) were killed because of religion. Doesn't add up. What about 400 million blacks over the course of American slavery....was that a religious thing? Nope. But with that said...do not think for a moment that if blacks were living in Germany at the time of the great war that they wouldn't have also been gassed and killed. IMO it had nothing to do with "religion" per say...but just pure madness, jealousy and wickedness.