Another play on words. What you see as "disagreeing" is just a different level of understanding (or misunderstanding) to me. If I'm wrong about something then God will inspire the Truth in me and so goes it for any other believer. But regardless you will find on occassion a differing of opinion. Just like no two atheist are alike.Originally Posted by CWildenradt
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
That was in response to the notion that God has a grand plan and is the master designer of the universe. That He is perfect and therefore makes no mistakes. That everything plays out perfectly according to His plan. In regard to that notion, I responded that way. A logical response to a presented notion.
My other response was in regard to free will and omniscience. Either we have free will or God is omniscient. It can't be both. By the bible's description, He can't be omniscient because we supposedly have free will. He was either reckless or clairvoyant (or both), but not omniscient. So yes, by that notion He is responsible. Just like someone on Earth is held responsible for reckless endangerment. If He is omniscient, He's not responsible because He has no other choice. But in that case we have no free will. Just the apparency of free will through predetermined deliberation.
So where is the contradiction you are trying to point out?
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Ian-T: God is all-knowing, all seeing all powerful, never makes a mistake. Everything that has happened so far has been exactly as god planned. God is pure love. Bible should be interpreted literally, it's an exact documentation of events. Earth was literally created in in a few days, and is a few thousand years old. There's no evolution, species were created as is.
michaeltn and iThinkergoiMac (parts from each): God is not all powerful, not all knowing. God's plans do not always follow through. God is not pure love. Bible is not always literal, not always an exact documentation of events. Earth's creation in a few days was a metaphora. Earth is billions of years old. Evolution happens, though only within families of species.
...or, that's what i've come to understand from what you folks have written. For starters.
Last edited by Halsu; 2009 July 13th at 12:01.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
Only thing that connects atheists is the lack of belief in any kind of a deity. It's not a belief system, there are no doctrines to follow.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
oy vei
I agree with some of that but I never said God was not all powerful or all knowing, of course he is. Part of God's plan is for us to have free will so his plan does follow through, but not necessarily the way he would want it. he could make everything go his way but chooses not to in order that we have free will.
Sure. But that also means you admit that all the suffering in mankind's history, sin, devil, all the bad stuff IS a part of god's plan.
Now, isn't that simple?
No. The situation would be closer to a general sending his troops to certain death, in order to make himself look good.Like a man on the frontlines, knowing that he is about to go into battle and die….but he goes to fight anyways…for the glory…for whatever. Wouldn’t that be the same thing?
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
The contradiction is using the term God and then putting some sort of "condition" on His omniscience just because we also have free will. If we didn’t have free will we would be robotic in nature. But the fact is we are all different having different aspirations and goals. No two persons think alike. So that negates the fact that we don’t have free will. With your logic it seems that if that is the case then God can’t be omniscient. Why not? Just because He knows what the outcome of our lives will be has nothing at all to do with the decisions we make from personal choice.
Plus, there is some confusion in how you are using the term omniscient. There is total omniscience which knowing any and everything there is to be known…and then there is inherent omniscience which is to know things that He chooses to know. I personally believe He is total omniscient myself but the fact remains that there is a difference. Not all scholars agree on this by the way. To me it does not matter….he is the author and finisher of my faith. In my limited understanding of Who I believe He is I think maybe He knows the outcome and decisions of those who are born again and encourages us through our lifetime to see it and believe it ourselves. For non-believers…it might be a whole different thing. But I have to believe the Word when it says He is omniscient.
No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein
Let's see if I can re-assert this in a different light.
You are posed with a decision that has three options. You don't know in advance what you are going to pick because you can't tell the future. But before you even start deliberating, God already knows what you will choose in advance. Because He is omniscient. He must know. Right?
So you deliberate, and deliberate some more. It all seems like you have the power to choose. But you choose what God knew you would choose. He knew you would choose it before He even created the Earth. He's omniscient.
So is it possible for you to make a choice that God didn't already know you would make? For instance, if He knew you'd choose option 1, can you possibly choose option 2? No, not if He's omniscient. Not possible for you to foil omniscience. He knows you'll choose option 1 and there's nothing you can change about that. It's not possible for you to choose options 2 or 3.
So it's robotics under the clever guise of free will via pre-determined deliberation.......if God is omniscient.
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That is simply wrong logic, it certainly possible for you to choose 1, 2 or 3. God knows what you will choose but still allows us to make the decision anyway. it is predestined due to our action not his.
It really goes to show how eternal our actions are and why our choices are so important even on matters that may seem minor to you.
Omniscience is infinite knowingness. Knowing EVERYTHING. Period. There are no exceptions. Knowing everything that ever was, is, and will be. EVERYTHING. That is the definition of omniscience.
So He knows everyone is different. So what? That doesn't mean it's free will. You can't possibly make a decision that God didn't already know you'd make! Unless He is not omniscient! Period.
So again, we either have free will, or God is omniscient. Both is an impossibility. Since the conviction seems to be more toward free will, I'll assume God is clairvoyant at best.
So here is the tally:
Not pure love. Check.
Not omniscient. Check.
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That sounds silly. He creates something that he knows will act certain way, but is not responsible when it happens?
I's like throwing a bucketload of vipers to someone's bed and blaming the snakes for his death, as the snakes had a free choice of biting or not biting the victim.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
So if God knows you'll pick 1, you're saying it's possible to pick 2 or 3? Essentially, you're saying it's possible to do something that God didn't know in advance?
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Again, just because he knew you would make a decision does not mean you didn't have a choice.So He knows everyone is different. So what? That doesn't mean it's free will. You can't possibly make a decision that God didn't already know you'd make! Unless He is not omniscient! Period.
that's your logic, not mine. Just because he knows does not mean you don't have a choice.
God is eternal and created us as eternal beings as well, so essentially when we have made a decision on earth we have made that decision throughout eternity, thus God knows our choices beforehand.
So again I ask you:
Is it possible to do anything that God didn't already know in advance?
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Sorry to chime in again but there's a question that bugged me already when I was a kid.
If God is omnipotent why doesn't he get rid of the devil (satan etc) for good?
No more evil temptations, no more fear, all hunky dory.
No
He will at some point in time
Well, that's actually just plain logic. And this exchange proves my point: Christianity doesn't hold up to plain logic.
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Yea, that part referred to this iThinker's message:
A god that makes plans that humans can completely screw up simply can not be all powerful, all knowing.
*Balanced audio hack* *Variable ND filters* *HV20 vs. Film* "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell: Animal Farm)
That is your own conclusion, I think your logic is faulty. We still have our choices regardless or not if God knows what we will do, I don't see what the problem is.
He only knows what choices we will make because we made them
Sure he can if he wants free will rather than being a puppet master
Good. That settles it. No free will. It only appears that way. But the fact is you do not have the freedom to choose anything but what God already knows you'll choose. That's all. No other options that you can actually pull the trigger on.
You can ponder billions of choices in a given circumstance, but if it's only possible to choose one pre-determined option, that's not free will. It only appears that it is.
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Ian, I know this question was not addressed to me but speaking for myself I can give you a resounding NO.
As a 20 year old I was in cardiac arrest for about 2 minutes from a weird infection that weakened my heart. I was in intensive care and they obviously brought me back. Anyway, what I've experienced during that moment was fairly undramatic. I just had some weird hallucinations, probably a bit like on an acid trip. It is probably caused by an accumulation of CO2 in the brain.
But then after that, nothing. Darkness. When I woke up it was simply like waking up from a normal sleep. With a slight hangover though
Once again, speaking for myself I can say that there's nothing fearful in dying. It most likely depends on how you die, whether in agony, fear etc. but under non-violent circumstances it's fairly trippy...
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