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Thread: Religious Debate

  1. #9551
    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgbier View Post
    ...and talking about full of crap: This is exactly why I can't stand the majority of holy-rollers: They can't keep their f'ing noses out of other people's business. If other people want to have the RIGHT to get a divorce, abortion, live together as a homosexual couple, go to/want to become a hooker... then let them these RIGHTS. It doesn't hurt you in the least, and is none of your f'ing business.
    YUP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HueyNRolf View Post
    He's angry? Really?
    Well... more like depression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    We as a community should have a say in what we want our kids to learn in school (whether public or private).
    I don't for one single second want my tax dollar spent on Christianity.... and that's my right as a tax payer. You as a taxpayer have the equal right in saying you don't want any of your tax dollar spent on Allah.

    You see something wrong with that??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bien View Post
    Don't like abortion, same-sex marriage, drugs, booze, prostitution, or eating pineapple on Thursdays? Then don't have an abortion, don't marry someone of the same gender, and forswear weed, wine, women and Thursday pineapple-eating. Heck, feel free to wallow in the smugness and superiority that only extreme attentiveness to the perceived needs of one's deity seems to bring. Just don't try to deny anyone else their right to choose differently, and we'll get along fine.
    Bloody well said!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sanders View Post
    I don't for one single second want my tax dollar spent on Christianity.... and that's my right as a tax payer. You as a taxpayer have the equal right in saying you don't want any of your tax dollar spent on Allah.

    You see something wrong with that??
    Well I guess that's why you live in Canada and I in the good ol US of A.
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  6. #9556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    Well I guess that's why you live in Canada and I in the good ol US of A.
    You didn't answer the question. Would you want your tax dollar spent on Allah?

  7. #9557

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    The reason I think most of this is all rubbish is because it works both ways. You talk about legislating our beliefs in the public school curriculum is denying your kids the opportunity for an education free of bigotry yet you, and people who think like you (or really from the same POV you posted here), are doing the exact same thing by denying free citizens the right to "have it their way." Let's say the community you live in believes in the Christian God. You mean the community should not have the right to legislate for a more faith based curriculum? We as a community should have a say in what we want our kids to learn in school (whether public or private). If the community speaks loud and clear through how they vote then THAT would determine if I stay or if I go. I think all of us would rather be around like minded folks anyways. If this isn't allowed in a community like this scenario then who would be fringing on who's rights? Who would be the bigot here? You statement makes it all seem so one sided.

    It takes a village to raise a child. Remember that?

    EDIT: BTW, it doesn't have to be a faith based or Christianity related POV to not want certain agendas or ideas being taught to our kids. I understand the seperation of state and church. But hopefully you get my point.
    This would, IMO, be a violation of the principle of the Separation of Church and State.

    "Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson (in his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists) and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The phrase has since been repeatedly cited by the Supreme Court of the United States.
    The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat..._United_States

    It's like saying, well in my community we believe African Americans should be slaves.

    You can't violate the Constitution just because your "community" wants to do something.


    If you want to change the US Constitution THEN you can teach a faith based curriculum in the schools with taxpayer money.
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  8. #9558

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    Personally, I do not like the Tax Exemption for Churches, and I would like to see it taken out of the tax code.

    The congregations could be as Political as they want, without fear of losing their tax exemption. I don't think this law requiring tax exempt Churches to not engage in political speech, is being enforced like it should be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillvane View Post
    It's like saying, well in my community we believe African Americans should be slaves.
    I dunno... according to MFH society's laws are no good and it's okay to pick, choose, and break the ones you want so i guess if you really want slavery back.....

  10. #9560

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    Interesting read on one person's view about the authorship of the bible.



    My Take: It doesn't matter who wrote the Bible


    Editor’s note: David Hazony is the author of "The Ten Commandments: How Our Most Ancient Moral Text Can Renew Modern Life," published recently by Scribner.

    By David Hazony, Special to CNN

    I am a person of faith. But sometimes I like to step outside of faith and just think about things rationally. Usually this oscillation between faith and skepticism serves me well, with faith giving reason its moral bearings, and reason keeping faith, well, reasonable.

    It’s a nice balancing act — except when the question of who wrote the Bible comes up. My Jewish faith tells me that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, known as the Torah or the Pentateuch. Reason tells me to be open to the idea that somebody else had a hand in it.

    And there are definitely a few glitches in the text that back up those suspicions - notably the last eight verses of Deuteronomy, which describe Moses’ own death.

    But try as I might, I just can’t believe that the Five Books of Moses were written by J, E, P and D – the four main authors whose oral traditions, biblical scholars say, were cobbled together to make the Torah. (The letters stand for the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Priestly source and the Deuteronomist. Those, we may assume, were not their real names.)

    Call me an academic infidel.

    I know, it’s been generations now that Bible study scholars at universities around the world have accepted as true that:

    (a) the Pentateuch was composed over many centuries through these four oral traditions, which were later written down;

    (b) these main texts were woven together by an editor or series of editors living around the 6th century B.C.E.; and

    (c) these different traditions are detectable by scholars today, to the point where you can justify entire conferences and an arena’s worth of endowed chairs to figure out not only the source document of every scrap of biblical text, but also the gender, political inclinations, subversive intentions, height, weight and personal traumas encumbering every one of its authors.

    The first two are plausible, I suppose. But the third has always struck me as pure fantasy, the point where idle speculation gives way to heavily funded hubris. Of course, if I’m right about the third, the first two lose their authority as well.

    Why don’t I buy it?

    It’s not just because of how stark, uninspiring and vaguely European those four letters look in a byline. Nor is it the fact that in more than a century’s worth of digging up the Middle East by archaeologists, not a single trace of any of these postulated “source texts” has ever turned up. And it’s certainly not because the scholars’ approach contradicts my faith — after all, it was the willful suspension of faith that led me to consider it in the first place.

    No, faith and skepticism dwell together in my confused bosom like pudding and pie.

    Rather, my rebellion against these scholars comes from experience. Specifically, my experience as an editor.

    It all started a few years back when, as the senior editor of a Jerusalem-based journal of public thought, I ran into trouble on a 10,000-word, brilliantly researched essay about Israeli social policy composed by the sweetest man on earth who, unfortunately wasn’t a stellar writer.

    I spent a few weeks rewriting, moving things around, adding and cutting and sweating. Finally I passed it up the chain to Dan, my editor-in-chief.

    "Hey Dan," I said. "Could you take a look at this? I added a whole paragraph in the conclusion. Tell me what you think."

    A few days later I got it back, marked up in red ballpoint. On the last page, in the conclusion, he had written the words “This is the paragraph you added,” and drawn a huge red arrow.

    But the arrow, alas, was pointing at the wrong paragraph.

    You see, it turns out that it’s not very easy to reverse-engineer an editing job. To take an edited text and figure out, in retrospect, what changes it went through — it’s about a million times harder than those tenured, tortured Bible scholars will tell you.

    Language is fluid and flexible, the product of the vagaries of the human soul. When an editor has free rein, he can make anything sound like he’d written it himself, or like the author’s own voice, or something else entirely. It all depends on his aims, his training, his talent and the quality of his coffee that morning. A good editor is a ventriloquist of the written word.

    That’s when I started to suspect that what Bible scholars claim they’re doing — telling you what the “original” Bible looked like — might be, in fact, impossible to do.

    Think about it. My case was one in which the author, editor and reader are all known entities (in fact, they all know each other personally); the reading takes place in the exact same cultural and social context as the writing and editing; and the reader is himself a really smart guy, Ivy-league Ph.D. and all, who had spent a decade training the editor to be a certain kind of editor, with specific tools unique to the specific publication’s aims.

    Not only that, but he was even told what kind of edit to look for, in which section. And still he couldn’t identify the change.

    Now compare that with what Bible scholars do when they talk about J, E, P, and D. Not only do the readers not know the writers and editors personally, or even their identities or when or where they lived. The readers live thousands of years later and know nothing about the editors’ goals, whims, tastes, passions or fears — they don’t even know for sure that the whole thing really went through an editorial process at all.

    (If anything, the same textual redundancies, narrative glitches, awkward word choices and so forth that the scholars claim are the telltale signs of an editing process are, in my experience, very often the opposite: the surest indicator that an author needs an editor, desperately. If the text was edited, it was done very poorly.)

    As with any field of research that tries to reconstruct the distant past, biblical scholars get things wrong on a daily basis.

    And that's OK: Getting things wrong is part of the nature of reconstruction. Whether you’re talking about the origins of galaxies, dinosaurs, ancient civilizations, medieval history or World War II, the conclusions of all historical research come with a big disclaimer: This is the best we’ve got so far. Stay tuned; we may revise our beliefs in a couple of years.

    With biblical scholars, however, you often feel like they’re flying just a little blinder than everyone else. At what point does a scholar’s “best guess” become so foggy as to be meaningless?

    The Five Books of Moses take place somewhere in the second millennium B.C.E., centuries before our earliest archeological corroborations for the biblical tales appearing in the Book of Joshua and onward. We have no other Hebrew writings of the time to compare it with. So all that scholars really have to go on is the text itself — a wild ride on a rickety, ancient, circular-reasoning roller-coaster with little external data to anchor our knowledge of anything.

    This would be fine, of course, if there weren’t so much riding on it.

    With other fields, we usually don’t have our own dinosaur in the fight. But with the Bible, it’s not just the scholars duking it out with the clergy. There’s all the rest of us trying to figure out what to do with this stupendously important book — either because it anchors our faith, or because it contains enduring wisdom and the foundations of our cultural identity.

    Where does that leave us? Some people, sensing their most cherished beliefs are under siege, will retreat to the pillars of faith — whether that faith is religious or academic. Either it was Moses, or it was J, E, P, and D. End of discussion.

    As for the rest of us, it may raise questions about whether we really ought to care that much about authorship at all, or instead just go with Mark Twain’s approach. “If the Ten Commandments were not written by Moses,” he once quipped, “then they were written by another fellow of the same name.”

    Using our reason means sometimes admitting there are things we just don’t know, and maybe never will.

    Maybe that’s all right. After all, isn’t it enough to know that the book is really important, that it has inspired love and hate and introspection and war for thousands of years, that it is full of interesting stories and wisdom, poetry and song, contradiction and fancy and an unparalleled belief in the importance of human endeavor - in the possibility of a better world - despite the enduring and tragic weaknesses that every biblical hero carries on his or her back? That it is an indelible part of who we are?

    Isn’t that enough to make you just read the thing and hope for the best, forever grateful to Moses, or that other fellow by the same name?
    I agree with this fellow, and Mark Twain.

    The conclusion is that FAITH is needed to believe in Jesus, not archaeology or proving the credibility of the Bible.

    Neither of those things exist, neither archaeology nor any credibility of the Bible through corroborating sources.

    So the inclusion of an author has little bearing on the Bible as a piece of Scientific evidence.

    Either you want to believe with no scientific proof, and there is none for the Bible, or you don't. Adding an author to an anonymous text that isn't corroborated doesn't really change that a bit.

    Lord of the Rings is just as convincing as a true account of history whether we know Tolkien wrote it, or it's anonymous. We don't have Hobbit bones or first hand accounts to back it up in any way, so what difference does it make who the author was?
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  11. #9561
    Moderator Erik Bien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    The reason I think most of this is all rubbish is because it works both ways.
    No. It doesn't. Tolerance means putting up with everything, not just the stuff you happen to agree with.

    You talk about legislating our beliefs in the public school curriculum is denying your kids the opportunity for an education free of bigotry yet you, and people who think like you (or really from the same POV you posted here), are doing the exact same thing by denying free citizens the right to "have it their way."
    Wrong again. As I've pointed out, you have options to exercise your choices which don't abridge the rights of others (religious schools, homeschooling, etc.)


    Let's say the community you live in believes in the Christian God.
    Since that describes 100% of virtually no community in the country you and I share, and I'm pretty sure neither of us is Amish or Mennonite which are the only possible exceptions I can think of, let's NOT say that. Let's call that for what it is: a straw man.

    I think all of us would rather be around like minded folks anyways. If this isn't allowed in a community like this scenario then who would be fringing on who's rights?
    Wow. Personally I welcome diversity and think the sort of pentecostal "gated community" you're describing sounds more like a "restricted" country club or a gulag than a neighborhood I'd want to live in. It certainly doesn't describe my world, where I constantly encounter gays, straights, Catholics, Buddhists, atheists, and people of every conceivable ethnic origin where I live and work. But again, you're perfectly free to move to a more homogenous, like-minded community, or even start a church, fraternal organization or other sub-community with your fellow true believers. What you aren't allowed to do is deny those who don't happen to be in lockstep with your particular beliefs their own rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even if they're "in the minority."

    Who would be the bigot here? You statement makes it all seem so one sided.
    That's because it is. Those imposing their own prejudices (or 'values' or 'beliefs') on others are always the bigots. Have you never heard the phrase, "the tyranny of the majority?"

    I really can't understand why such a straightforward concept is apparently so difficult to understand. Why on earth do you care what deity someone else worships or who they marry or whatever else they do, if it isn't hurting you? Why the apparent need to enshrine your own narrow beliefs in laws that affect everyone else?

    I understand the seperation of state and church. But hopefully you get my point.
    I must admit, I don't think I do ...

  12. #9562

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sanders View Post
    I dunno... according to MFH society's laws are no good and it's okay to pick, choose, and break the ones you want so i guess if you really want slavery back.....
    This begs the question, do laws come from men or God?

    In order for laws to come from God, you have to FIRST prove there is a God. I think everyone freely admits that you cannot scientfically prove God exists.

    That means laws come from Man.

    Sometimes teh men making the laws SAY they got them from God, but unless God himself tells me about the law, I'm getting them from Men.

    Even the 10 commandments are coming from Men, since Men wrote the Bible. I wouldn't believe any third party to relay to me a message from God. I'd have to get it diirectly, otherwise I call BS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillvane View Post
    In order for laws to come from God, you have to FIRST prove there is a God. I think everyone freely admits that you cannot scientfically prove God exists.

    That means laws come from Man.
    That's a very good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillvane View Post
    It's like saying, well in my community we believe African Americans should be slaves.

    You can't violate the Constitution just because your "community" wants to do something.

    .
    It's funny you brought up slavery and violating the constitution in the same paragraph. Don't get me started. That's the same document that once considered people like me 3/5's of a person. Slavery existed before, during and after that document was penned. Sure, there were opponents to slavery but during that time there were no movements to abolish it. That came 50 years after the fact. If the constitution today is considered such a living tribute to the art of compromise then it can still be ammended. As far as violation of the constitution today...try living in Florida as a registered black voter. You wanna talk about a violation of constitutional rights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillvane View Post
    I agree with this fellow, and Mark Twain.

    The conclusion is that FAITH is needed to believe in Jesus, not archaeology or proving the credibility of the Bible.

    Neither of those things exist, neither archaeology nor any credibility of the Bible through corroborating sources.

    So the inclusion of an author has little bearing on the Bible as a piece of Scientific evidence.

    Either you want to believe with no scientific proof, and there is none for the Bible, or you don't. Adding an author to an anonymous text that isn't corroborated doesn't really change that a bit.

    Lord of the Rings is just as convincing as a true account of history whether we know Tolkien wrote it, or it's anonymous. We don't have Hobbit bones or first hand accounts to back it up in any way, so what difference does it make who the author was?
    I don't think anyone has disagreed with the idea that we can't prove God's existence scientifically. That statement has been made over and over from both sides. What it boils down to is what YOU consider evidence (science) from what a "religious" person considers evidence (faith). I'll take it a step further and say I am open to scientific discovery but am steadfast in what I believe as a man of faith. After all I do live in the physical world. I just believe, in my own way, that there's more to what meets the eye (there's no science in that).
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    I do not understand how religious folk cant seem to get their heads around the simple fact that us atheists do not need to prove that god does not exist, in fact the onus of proof is on THEM to prove that god does exist, as they are making the claim.

    What can be proven, is that the Abrahamic god Yahweh as described in the abrahamic religious fiction (most commonly known as the Bible, Torah, and Quaran respectively) Is inherently self contradictory and thus a literal impossibility.

    If we throw out the bible(s) and just look at god as a concept of a powerful being that created the universe and everything in it including us (simplest definition), we can prove that the probability of its existence is so infinitesimally small that it may as well be an impossibility.

    And then there's just the simple fact that god just begs the question. If god created everything, then what created god? What came before god? Using god as an explanation for our existence answers nothing, and only satisfies the lazy, stupid, and gullible.
    Evolution and natural selection on the other hand, show us step by step how we got here, has mountains of evidence to support it, and actually answers questions.

    Basically, what this means, Is that until religious folk can prove that god exists, with actual verifiable scientific evidence, they have no right, nor reason, to dictate anything to anyone else about how we should live etc based on what their little book of contradictions says. Because until you can prove your god exists, your no different from the crazy homeless dude on the corner rambling about elves living in his hair.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    That's the same document that once considered people like me 3/5's of a person.
    Well if it ONCE treated you like 3/5's of a person then it can't very well be the same document can it. At any rate, it's quite fortunate for you that the document DOES exist in its present form, otherwise you would still be in chains today (and please don't try and tell me that the woes you face today are ANYTHING like they were back then). Not withstanding, your own Christian faith at one time believed heavily in slavery... and examples of regulated slavery can be found all over the bible. Our terrible, awful society along with that horrid document is why you're not in chains toady. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Life has changed big time for African Americans... now maybe we're not QUITE there yet.... but that document has done a lot more in terms of getting rid of slavery than your bible and your christian faith ever has.
    Last edited by Bob Sanders; 2012 April 24th at 21:51.

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    What's this crap about not being able to prove god exists scientifically? That's utter ridiculousness!! If something exists, it can be proven to exist scientifically.
    It cannot be proven that god does not exist, as it is impossible to prove non-existence of anything, but if there is, by some weird chance actually a god, its existence can be proven somehow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilBastardProductions View Post
    what created god? What came before god?
    Why Mrs. God (senior) of course... and just like Mary, she popped God (junior) out without the need for sperm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sanders View Post
    Why Mrs. God (senior) of course... and just like Mary, she popped God (junior) out without the need for sperm.
    Wow, can't believe I forgot about her!!! Slut owes me $10!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bien View Post
    Wow. Personally I welcome diversity and think the sort of pentecostal "gated community" you're describing sounds more like a "restricted" country club or a gulag than a neighborhood I'd want to live in. It certainly doesn't describe my world, where I constantly encounter gays, straights, Catholics, Buddhists, atheists, and people of every conceivable ethnic origin where I live and work. But again, you're perfectly free to move to a more homogenous, like-minded community, or even start a church, fraternal organization or other sub-community with your fellow true believers. What you aren't allowed to do is deny those who don't happen to be in lockstep with your particular beliefs their own rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even if they're "in the minority." ...
    I think you know exactly what I meant.

    I grew up in a very diverse community. I am open to it. I can be like some others and talk about all my black, yellow, white, gay friends to prove my point...but I rather not because I always thought that looked corney when others do it. But I want to clarify when I said "like minded" folks I meant folks with the same sense of community, ideals (not dogma). That's why I quoted the famous saying that it takes a village to raise a child. I'm not necessarily open to all types of diversity though...which is why I'd rather be around folks that think like myself (not necessarily that looks like me)...who want to live a nice quiet and peaceful life.

    Case in point: I live in a decent neighborhood. My neighbors are pretty much quiet, very friendly, keep their yards looking nice and pretty much very welcoming. We are one of a few black folks (as far as I can see) living in this neighborhood (not that it matters). Other than the usual car driving down the road the streets are pretty quiet. One would think this is the perfect place to settle down. But just the other day my wife walks outside early in the morning to take out the trash and abruptly runs back in the house and yells..."Ian...oh my God there are FBI agents everywhere...come look!!!" Needless to say I was in the shower butt NEKKID thinking that she was out of her mind. So, by the time I got dressed they were already gone. As it turns out we found out from a sherrif friend of ours that not only was it the FBI surrounding and raiding our neighbor's house...but there was also local law enforcement, DEA AND... the Secret Service. WTF?? The clean cut all American boy (23 year old) next door who has worked on our yards, helped fix our vehicles etc. is now facing a grand jury for the making and distributing of child pornography and other drug related charges. Who knew? Yeah, I think I'm justified in saying that I desire to live around like minded folks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilBastardProductions View Post
    Wow, can't believe I forgot about her!!! Slut owes me $10!!!
    forget it. You'll never get it back. Higher powers... you give, they take.. That's just the way it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    Case in point: I live in a decent neighborhood. My neighbors are pretty much quiet, very friendly, keep their yards looking nice and pretty much very welcoming. We are one of a few black folks (as far as I can see) living in this neighborhood. Other than the usual car driving down the road the streets are pretty quiet. One would think this is the perfect place to settle down. But just the other day my wife walks outside early in the morning to take out the trash and abruptly runs back in the house and yells..."Ian...oh my God there are FBI agents everywhere...come look!!!" Needless to say i was but nekkid and in the shower thjinking that she was out of her mind. by the time I got fressed they were already gone. As it turns out we found out from a sherrif friend of ours that not only was it the FBI surrounding and raiding our neighbor's house...but there was also local law enforcement, DEA AND... the Secret Service. WTF?? The clean cut all American boy (23 year old) next door who has worked on our yards, helped fix our vehicles etc. is now facing a grand jury for the making and distributing of child pornography and other drug related charges. Who knew? Yeah, I think I'm justified in saying that I desire to live around like minded folks.
    So what the heck is your point to this???
    Crap happens... Your neighbor could have been a priest... would it make a difference? Obviously not since there have been a number of them sent to trial/jail over child buggering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilBastardProductions View Post
    Basically, what this means, Is that until religious folk can prove that god exists, with actual verifiable scientific evidence, they have no right, nor reason, to dictate anything to anyone else about how we should live etc based on what their little book of contradictions says.
    That's just it...you (as well as others) talk as if you are being persecuted by these "lazy, stupid, and gullible" people. What kind of place do you live in where this is happening? It's just all angry talk and an excuse to point fingers at something (or someone) you don't agree with. I can live with that except...I don't know what you mean by dictate. To legislate is one thing...but that is not dictating. We all have the very same rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sanders View Post
    Well if it ONCE treated you like 3/5's of a person then it can't very well be the same document can it. At any rate, it's quite fortunate for you that the document DOES exist in its present form, otherwise you would still be in chains today (and please don't try and tell me that the woes you face today are ANYTHING like they were back then). Not withstanding, your own Christian faith at one time believed heavily in slavery... and examples of regulated slavery can be found all over the bible. Our terrible, awful society along with that horrid document is why you're not in chains toady. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Life has changed big time for African Americans... now maybe we're not QUITE there yet.... but that document has done a lot more in terms of getting rid of slavery than your bible and your christian faith ever has.
    Nothing you say suprises me (or even makes sense).
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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