Religious Debate

[Bob Sanders]

I know what you are talking about. That also bothers me, and I'm sorry if I come off as "holier than anyone."

Well I must say... you're very good at stating who is and isn't allowed to be considered Christian

Like I said before, I'm very flawed myself. Anyone can find salvation and eternal life through faith in Christ, however.

That doesn't include Hitler though

I am passionate about this stuff, so maybe this passion can be confused by what you are describing.

I would be more inclined to site the issue as brainwashing.

As far as the abortion issue goes, it saddens me and find that many people justify it without a logical framework behind it. It is accepted simply as a feature of the zeitgeist (in other words, it is accepted in our society that a fetus is not a human being, hence abortion is a non issue.) I think the vast majority of women that abort are just as much the victims in this problem as the child. And, as I said before, I understand why my thoughts about this can be painful and offensive to some people. Truth sometimes is.

Who's truth?

[Bob Sanders]

How am I an imperfect Christian? In almost every way possible. Every Christian is aware of this fact. That's the key of Christianity. Salvation through merit is impossible, it is only possible through faith in Christ.

So would it be okay for Hitler to judge your wrong-doings and state you not to be worthy of Christianity?

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Sorry... I didn't know you were the elected voice for all Christians. Let me ask you though... what makes you think you have the right to speak for all Christians? What gives you the right to decide who is Cristian and who isn't?

If you had read the Bible (or if at least you had read the New Testament) you would already know that those are not my ideas. Christ is the voice for all Christians, nobody else is.

The core Christian beliefs invalidate people like Adolf Hitler immediately as a Christian, because the conflict between the teachings of the Bible and their actions are simply irreconcileable. If I call myself a pacifist and then invade a country by force without provocation, am I still a pacifist? Of course not. It's so simple that even a 4 year old can understand that concept.

[Gillvane]

That is pure demagogy. It's not about controlling a woman's body. It's about protecting a life.

By the way, abortion makes it much easier to "control women's bodies" and convince them that a casual f*ck now and then is alright.

Oh, I see. You could control those dirty whores and make them not have sex if you could force them to have babies.

That's so much better.

[Gillvane]

Ask yourself these questions:

1. Do I believe Jesus existed?
2. Do I believe St. Peter existed?
3. do I believe the writings attributed to St. Peter are St. Peter's?

These are some nice questions to get you started along the right path.

1. No.
2. Yes.
3. If you mean the Bible, no.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Well I must say... you're very good at stating who is and isn't allowed to be considered Christian

I am not who set the standard. Read the Bible.

That doesn't include Hitler though

That's technically not true. Honest repentance of all sins before death and pure faith are sufficient to gain salvation. Many people tend to think about this: "Oh, cool, I can just do whatever I feel like, and then repent before I die." In reality, it doesn't work that way. Why? Because anybody with the capability to have actual faith would never follow that thought process. God is omniscient and knows for every soul the truth of those last moments. Obviously, panicking and hitting the red faith button doesn't count. It has to be an honest act of repentance and faith. Many people go thorugh the whole lives struggling to nourish that faith. That's why I said that in practice this last act of truthful repentance must be rather uncommon. And definitely not to be part of a conscious "Plan B" for the reason I stated earlier.

I would be more inclined to site the issue as brainwashing.

First of all, it is "cite". Second of all, you are free to accuse anybody who doesn't agree with you of being brainwashed. It is not a very sound way to go through life, but that's your prerogative. I try to apply logic to all my arguments, unlike you, which to me is indicative of a low possibility of brainwashing in this case.

Who's truth?

Truth just is. It doesn't belong to anyone. It doesn't vary by locale, or based on the time of day.

[Gillvane]

This whole line of reasoning is a fallacy, because, first of all, the Bible is not a single book. It is a group of different sources that reinforce each other. It's a cohesive, coherent (minus some details) whole.

.

Yes. All the Chapters of The Hobbit reinforce each other.

So?

[MalfunctioningHuman]

So would it be okay for Hitler to judge your wrong-doings and state you not to be worthy of Christianity?

I'm not judging Hitler. Only God can ultimately judge Hitler or anybody else. I'm saying that his actions are logically incoherent with being a Christian, and hence he cannot be a Christian (although, as mentioned on my previous post, there is a minute possibility that Hitler might have honestly repented in the last instants of his life.) For all intents and purposes, from a historical point of view, Hitler (regardless of what he claimed himself to be) was no Christian. He was no pacifist (or Scottsman) either.

Kind of funny, though, this putting together of Scottsman and Nazis just made me think of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Oh, I see. You could control those dirty whores and make them not have sex if you could force them to have babies.

That's so much better.

Men love abortion being legal, because it means they can have fun and get out of paying child support. That's a clear way of oppressing women. The laws are made majoritarily by men. If you think abortion is just an exception that shows the deference by the male establishment for women's rights you are very mistaken.

Take a look at the Internet around you and tell me women have been liberated from male oppression. I rest my case.

Reflection: The easiest way to control somebody is to convince them that you are liberating them when in reality you are putting them under bondage (no pun intended.)

Change people's attitudes about what it means to be free, and you can enslave them til the end of time. The Devil is one smart bastard, I'll give him that.

[Gillvane]

Slavery is a well defined problem. The slaves were the only victims there. Abortion is different. I think you are forgetting another human being that is being victimized with abortion (i.e., the fetus.)

I think you are forgetting that doesn't give you the right to control a woman's body.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

1. No.
2. Yes.
3. If you mean the Bible, no.

So now you don't even believe Jesus existed? OK, good for you. I guess Jesus was just like the Easter Bunny of the day then.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

I think you are forgetting that doesn't give you the right to control a woman's body.

If I were to punch somebody in the mouth and I was told to not do that, wouldn't somebody be trying to control my body (my fist, in this case)? Who would have that right?

[Gillvane]

If you had read the Bible (or if at least you had read the New Testament) you would already know that those are not my ideas. Christ is the voice for all Christians, nobody else is.

The core Christian beliefs invalidate people like Adolf Hitler immediately as a Christian, because the conflict between the teachings of the Bible and their actions are simply irreconcileable. If I call myself a pacifist and then invade a country by force without provocation, am I still a pacifist? Of course not. It's so simple that even a 4 year old can understand that concept.

You're saying you have to be Jesus, or else you're not a Christian.

ALL Christians sins, it's just a matter of degree.

There's no cut off point mentioned in the Bible.

Ok, if you tell a lie, you can repent. But if you tell a bigger lie, you can still repent.

Wait a minute. You told a REALLY big lie. Ok, you're not a Christian now no matter what you do.

That ain't in the Bible. You made it up.

[Gillvane]

So now you don't even believe Jesus existed? OK, good for you. I guess Jesus was just like the Easter Bunny of the day then.

Finally. Now were getting somewhere!

Yes! Jesus is just like the Easter Bunny.

If you want to believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Jesus, or the man in the moon, go right ahead. As long as you're not hurting anyone that's fine by me.

you havent' show anything about what was "of the day".

The Bible doesn't do that.

it's not an historical record. It's an anonymous story.

[Gillvane]

If I were to punch somebody in the mouth and I was told to not do that, wouldn't somebody be trying to control my body (my fist, in this case)? Who would have that right?

You're talking about self defense.

You want to throw the first punch.

What is a woman doing to you? NOTHING.

So you don't have a right to control her body.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Yes. All the Chapters of The Hobbit reinforce each other.

So?

The Hobbit is a work of fiction by one single author. The Bible is a collection of historical texts by many authors.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

You're talking about self defense.

You want to throw the first punch.

What is a woman doing to you? NOTHING.

So you don't have a right to control her body.

If a woman murders her 1 year old child she is not doing ANYTHING to me either. Hence, what right do I have to tell her what to do? What's your point?

[Gillvane]

The Hobbit is a work of fiction by one single author. The Bible is a collection of historical texts by many authors.

"Historical texts" are not anonymous.

The Bible is anonymous.

The Bible is NOT an historical text any more than Lord of the Rings.

Ok, you don't like that because Tolkien wrote the whole thing.

Then a collection of short stories.

[MalfunctioningHuman]

You're saying you have to be Jesus, or else you're not a Christian.

ALL Christians sins, it's just a matter of degree.

There's no cut off point mentioned in the Bible.

Ok, if you tell a lie, you can repent. But if you tell a bigger lie, you can still repent.

Wait a minute. You told a REALLY big lie. Ok, you're not a Christian now no matter what you do.

That ain't in the Bible. You made it up.

It's not about degree of the offense, I'm sorry. It's about unrepentance and lack of faith. Somebody that puts a plan to exterminate the Jewish race for decades I'm pretty sure cannot have faith in Christ, hence he is not a Christian. Simple enough for you?

[MalfunctioningHuman]

"Historical texts" are not anonymous.

The Bible is anonymous.

The Bible is NOT an historical text any more than Lord of the Rings.

Ok, you don't like that because Tolkien wrote the whole thing.

Then a collection of short stories.

You are, of course, wrong.

What is a historical text? A text describing actual events in human history (not a work of fiction.)

That the Bible is a collection of historical texts is only doubted by a few people. Can you tell me of any prominent historian that thinks the New Testament is a work of fiction?

[MalfunctioningHuman]

Finally. Now were getting somewhere!

Yes! Jesus is just like the Easter Bunny.

If you want to believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Jesus, or the man in the moon, go right ahead. As long as you're not hurting anyone that's fine by me.

you havent' show anything about what was "of the day".

The Bible doesn't do that.

it's not an historical record. It's an anonymous story.

You are still confused about what a historical text is. Verifiable authorship and historicity have nothing to do with each other. For example, a writing extracted from Pompey's ashes without a signature, is a historical document.

A work of fiction, like The Hobbit, with a known author, is not a historical document. It is a work of fiction.

They are different concepts, plain and simple.

[Ian-T]

1. No.

What??? Here is where you are proving to all of us that you are not trying to engage in a coherent conversation but are purposely being deceitful and contradictory. You even mentioned earlier that the Quran has a more realistic description of Jesus but here you are denying He existed at all. Which is it?

[Ian-T]

Take a look at the Internet around you and tell me women have been liberated from male oppression. I rest my case.

Well, honestly, for a man who's signature states ""beautiful girls are the cheapest special effect" I think this is a hard sell.

[HueyNRolf]

It's like a little kid saying "Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet....."

It's simply you refusing to answer a question that you don't want to answer. Cowardly. Your entire post is yet again irrelevant to the subject and exemplifies this point. Here's why:

If you believe God cannot be discussed. . .

Strawman- You're getting 'I believe' and 'discussing' confused with the actual target property (is the definition a logic statement?). The only thing that can show it to be so, is a clear explanation.
Do you get this? Above is the reason why your post is completely fallacious. It doesn't answer the question.
Here it is again;

Show us why god definitions are logical statements or concede you cannot.

[cgbier]

You are saying that Muslim women wear the pants in the house? Wow, I didn't know that!

I mean, really? How many nordic ruling women do you know? Weren't they all kings who happened to marry whoever they wanted?

Please, I'm intrigued. Show me that women held the power (and men were submissive to their women) in those cultures. I'm dying to know more.

The nordic women weren't submissive, but equal. They even followed their hubbies to battle. That whole king thing only came up with the Roman/christian patriarchalism.

Muslims and women? Believe it or not, but the Q'ran says that man and woman are equal - separate, but equal. The separate means that a woman can make the same career as a man, but can only be taught by a woman. She can be a doctor, but is only allowed to treat females. The wife has the same rights to get a divorce as the man.

That whole "we don't want to have girls' schools" is a reactionary mantra of the Salafists (Osama bin Laden was one), the guys who run the Taliban, Pakistan, and some other backwards regions in the world, and behind many terrorist attacks - financed by Saudi Arabia btw. - giving islam a bad name.